User:InProgress/Website reviews/R - Revision history

RogerNicholson: redirect

2012-05-05T15:55:57Z

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	{{Articles FAIR copyright}} {{Articles Header 1}} {{Articles Header 2}} {{Articles Header 3}} {{Articles Header 4}} {{Articles Header 5}} {{Articles Header 6}} {{Articles Header 7}} {{Articles Header 8}} {{Articles Header 9}} {{Articles Header 10}}		#REDIRECT [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates]]
	~~__NOTOC__~~
	~~{{FAIRAnalysisHeader~~
	~~\|title=[[../\|MormonThink]]~~
	~~\|author=Anonymous~~
	~~\|noauthor=~~
	~~\|section=Joseph Running with the Plates~~
	~~\|previous=~~
	~~\|next=~~
	~~\|notes=~~
	}}
	~~==A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"==~~

	~~==== ====~~
	~~{{Website response summary\|date=29 April 2012}}~~

	~~'''The positions that the MormonThink article "Joseph Running with the Plates" appears to take are the following:'''~~
	* That the plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs, and yet despite this that it was impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.
	* That Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him.
	* The website concludes that the story of Joseph escaping those who tried to take the plates is a "tall tale" that should not be taught.

	~~==== ====~~
	~~{{Website response label}}~~

	~~==== ====~~
	~~{{MormonThinkIndexClaim~~
	\|claim=The critics say that Joseph could not have possibly transported and worked with these heavy 200 pound plates. Also pure gold would be too malleable to be useful for permanent engraving....In this instance [MormonThink] disagree[s] with the critics' premise. We don't feel that the plates had to be made of solid gold. Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold. The witnesses described them as having the 'appearance of gold'....We do however, wonder why the angel would give Joseph specific instruction that he could not use the plates for personal gain if they were not made of gold....So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds. We summarily reject the critics' arguments that the plates must have weighed 200 pounds.
	~~\|think=~~
	*MormonThink finally gets one right. Interesting, though, that they use this to appear as if they are "objective" and weighing the evidence--but they then go on to distort the evidence they present later.
	*A ''solid block of gold'' of the dimensions described by Joseph Smith and the witnesses would weigh 200 pounds, but does not account for any air space between leaves. The plates were not a solid block of gold. Pure gold is too soft to create such plates. It makes you think—were the plates made of a [[Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold_plates#Of_what_material_were_the_plates.3F\|lighter alloy]]?
	*William Smith, who MormonThink was happy to [[../../Website_reviews/W#\|quote]] as saying he only saw the plates covered (and which MormonThink tried to insist meant that ''no one'' had claimed to have seen the uncovered plates) specifically said the plates were a mixture of copper and gold—which is much lighter than pure gold. Why don't they mention this statement of William's?
	*As antiquarian artifacts, the plates would have been quite valuable even if not made of a precious metal—and, it didn't much matter whether the plates were pure gold, but whether Joseph or others who might be tempted to use them for gain ''thought'' they were.
	~~\|quote=~~
	* The plates were "a mixture of gold and copper" - William Smith, ''The Saints' Herald'' (4 October 1884): 644.
	~~\|link=Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates~~
	~~\|subject=Description of the plates~~
	~~\|summary=How did the many witnesses describe the plates and related items?~~
	}}

	~~==== ====~~
	~~{{MormonThinkIndexClaim~~
	\|claim=How could any man, especially a man that had a slight limp run with a 50 pound weight and avoid capture by three assailants? The journey through the woods was about 3 miles as Joseph indicated above. It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men for some 1 to 2 miles that were bent on taking the plates from Joseph. And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance -especially carrying a 50 lb. weight.
	~~\|think=~~
	* Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight\|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates.
	* Joseph's mother (who [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account\|told this story]]) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them, knocked them down, and ran on.
	* MormonThink also doesn't tell us that Joseph's mother specifically said that one man who was probably involved in the attack had traveled sixty miles over the last day and night to get there--surely not someone who was well rested for a long footrace against young Joseph.
	* So, the key question would seem to be, "Was Joseph physically capable of ~~incapacitating someone with a blow, or slowing them enough to evade?" His well-known skill at wrestling and stick-pulling would suggest that this he was.~~

	~~\|quote=~~
	* Did you know that [http://~~chandaodiscussion.forumcity.com~~/viewtopic.php?t=20&sid=8b210adaecb80251c7c58e231456babc traditional Chinese martial artists] recommend training in "hilly terrain" to build strength, and running with a rucksack containing 56 lbs for men, for a distance of at least 5 miles? (They emphasize that farmlife made such things doable anciently.) Maybe MormonThink ~~should let them know this weight and distance is impossible.~~
	* During World War II, a Canadian infantry sergeant [https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22Sergeant+Gentile+carried+the+wounded+soldier+a+half+mile+to+the+nearest+medical+aid+station%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a carried his friend on his shoulders for half a mile], while under continuous enemy fire. A wounded man weighs considerably more than fifty pounds, and he probably didn't loiter while under severe fire.
	* Hitler's SS trained to run 3 km (1.87 miles) in twenty minutes with full gear.{{ref\|ss.1}}
	* Israel Defense Force officer candidates must past the "[http://www.foiwa.org.au/aggregator/sources/18 Loren test]"—"scaling a two-meter wall, climbing a three-meter wall, completing an obstacle course, running two miles, and then target-shooting — all in under 22 minutes," and done in full battle gear.
	~~\|link=Book of Mormon/Translation/Description of the plates/Too heavy for~~ Joseph ~~to run with~~
	~~\|subject=Plates too heavy for Joseph to run~~ with
	~~\|summary=How heavy were the plates? Could Joseph have run with them as described?~~

	}}
	~~==== ====~~
	~~{{MormonThinkIndexClaim~~
	~~\|claim=And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance -especially carrying a 50 lb. weight.~~
	~~\|think=~~
	* MormonThink hopes we ignore the fact that if Joseph's account is ''true'' that God could well have blessed him beyond his own abilities. That said, Joseph [[Joseph_Smith/Early_Smith_family_history/Early_work_as_a_farmhand\|was well-known for his strength and ability to do serious amounts of physical work]], as well as wrestle and pull sticks—maybe he's in better physical shape that MormonThink wants to grant?
	* What evidence is there that Joseph's "slight limp" made it hard for him to run at high speed? Joseph managed fine during the Zion's Camp march of nearly a thousand miles on foot at 25-40 miles per day (Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling'', 239). He'd had the limp since his boyhood operation, and was likely well-adjusted to it.
	* In a culture and time when all work is done by either human or animal muscle power, frontier farmers like the Smiths were likely in far better physical condition than most twenty-first century westerners.
	~~\|quote=~~
	~~Joseph's leg didn't seem to stop him from competing well in footraces and high jumping:~~

	:. . . All of the Henrie boys were of the rugged athletic type and all were fairly big fellows. Daniel being the smallest, but he was strong and wirey. They loved to wrestle, run and jump and often did it in the less tense moments when they had time. The prophet also loved and excelled in these sports and one day Daniel related he walked up to one of their high corral gates—it came up to his chin as he measured it—then he walked back a little way, took a running jump, and cleared the gate easily. Daniel related that he often beat the Prophet racing and also at the high jump, but when the prophet thought it was his turn to win and he really tried, he could out them all.{{ref\|henrie.1}}

	This doesn't sound like a man whose limp is crippling him--and Joseph was younger and likely more fit during the Book of Mormon translating period, when he was focused almost entirely on farming, rather than splitting his attention as required for Church administration.

	~~\|link=Book of Mormon/Translation/Description of~~ the ~~plates/Too heavy for Joseph to run with~~
	~~\|subject=~~Plates ~~too heavy for Joseph to run with~~
	~~\|summary=How heavy were the plates? Could Joseph have run with them as described?~~

	}}

	~~==== ====~~
	~~{{MormonThinkIndexClaim~~
	\|claim=If the story is but a 'tall tale', regardless of its origins, it should not be taught in church as a true historical account, as we have been taught growing up in the church, just to provide a faith-promoting event.
	~~\|think=~~
	* We have no reason to think it a "tall tale" save MormonThink's "[[Logical_fallacies/Page_1#Argument_from_ignorance\|argument from incredulity]]"—they don't believe it can be done, so therefore it's a tall tale. But, people clearly can and ''do'' do what Joseph claimed he did, especially when the story which his [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account\|mother actually told]] (three separate attacks by individual men) is considered.
	* MormonThink needs to do better than this before labeling a "tall tale" just because they want a faith-destroying non-story.
	~~\|quote=~~
	}}

	~~=={{Endnotes label}}==~~
	#{{note\|ss.1}} Christopher Ailsby, ''SS: Hell on the Eastern Front: The Waffen-SS War in Russia, 1941-1945'' (Osceloa, WI: MBI Publishing Co., 1998), [http://books.google.ca/books?id=HAMd81LJJs4C&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=%22cross-country+running%22+%22full+kit%22&source=bl&ots=UQHKPO0Sp_&sig=l1G51-Qi7kPCiWU46LrA6g3UEj4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UPOdT_H7AuiU2gX5osSaDw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22cross-country%20running%22%20%22full%20kit%22&f=false p. 18]
	#{{note\|henrie.1}} {{Book:McConkie:Remembering Joseph book\|pages=Henrie, William account citing Callie O. Morley, "History of William and Myra Mayall Henrie, Pioneers of 1847 and 1847," Delta, West Millard County, Utah, October 1955, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 4-5.}}

RogerNicholson: /* */ mod

2012-05-05T15:51:42Z

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	'''The positions that the MormonThink article "Joseph Running with the Plates" appears to take are the following:'''		'''The positions that the MormonThink article "Joseph Running with the Plates" appears to take are the following:'''
	* That the plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs, yet despite this, that it was impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.		* That the plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs, and yet despite this that it was impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.
	* That Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him.		* That Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him.
	* The website concludes that the story of Joseph escaping those who tried to take the plates is a "tall tale" that should not be taught.		* The website concludes that the story of Joseph escaping those who tried to take the plates is a "tall tale" that should not be taught.

RogerNicholson: /* */ mod

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	'''The positions that the MormonThink article "Joseph Running with the Plates" appears to take are the following:'''		'''The positions that the MormonThink article "Joseph Running with the Plates" appears to take are the following:'''
	* ~~The~~ plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs.		* That the plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs, yet despite this, that it was impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.
	* Despite this, it is impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.		* That Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him.
	* Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him.		* The website concludes that the story of Joseph escaping those who tried to take the plates is a "tall tale" that should not be taught.
	* The story of Joseph escaping those who tried to take the plates is a "tall tale" that should not be taught.

	==== ====		==== ====

RogerNicholson: /* */ mod

2012-05-05T15:49:41Z

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	{{Website response summary\|date=29 April 2012}}		{{Website response summary\|date=29 April 2012}}

	The positions that ~~this~~ MormonThink article appears to take are the following:		'''The positions that the MormonThink article "Joseph Running with the Plates" appears to take are the following:'''
	* The plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs.		* The plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs.
	* Despite this, it is impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.		* Despite this, it is impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.

RogerNicholson: rm

2012-05-03T04:21:57Z

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GregSmith at 03:58, 30 April 2012

2012-04-30T03:58:42Z

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	\|claim=The critics say that Joseph could not have possibly transported and worked with these heavy 200 pound plates. Also pure gold would be too malleable to be useful for permanent engraving....In this instance [MormonThink] disagree[s] with the critics' premise. We don't feel that the plates had to be made of solid gold. Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold. The witnesses described them as having the 'appearance of gold'....We do however, wonder why the angel would give Joseph specific instruction that he could not use the plates for personal gain if they were not made of gold....So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds. We summarily reject the critics' arguments that the plates must have weighed 200 pounds.		\|claim=The critics say that Joseph could not have possibly transported and worked with these heavy 200 pound plates. Also pure gold would be too malleable to be useful for permanent engraving....In this instance [MormonThink] disagree[s] with the critics' premise. We don't feel that the plates had to be made of solid gold. Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold. The witnesses described them as having the 'appearance of gold'....We do however, wonder why the angel would give Joseph specific instruction that he could not use the plates for personal gain if they were not made of gold....So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds. We summarily reject the critics' arguments that the plates must have weighed 200 pounds.
	\|think=		\|think=
			*MormonThink finally gets one right. Interesting, though, that they use this to appear as if they are "objective" and weighing the evidence--but they then go on to distort the evidence they present later.
	*A ''solid block of gold'' of the dimensions described by Joseph Smith and the witnesses would weigh 200 pounds, but does not account for any air space between leaves. The plates were not a solid block of gold. Pure gold is too soft to create such plates. It makes you think—were the plates made of a [[Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold_plates#Of_what_material_were_the_plates.3F\|lighter alloy]]?		*A ''solid block of gold'' of the dimensions described by Joseph Smith and the witnesses would weigh 200 pounds, but does not account for any air space between leaves. The plates were not a solid block of gold. Pure gold is too soft to create such plates. It makes you think—were the plates made of a [[Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold_plates#Of_what_material_were_the_plates.3F\|lighter alloy]]?
	*William Smith, who MormonThink was happy to [[../../Website_reviews/W#\|quote]] as saying he only saw the plates covered (and which MormonThink tried to insist meant that ''no one'' had claimed to have seen the uncovered plates) specifically said the plates were a mixture of copper and gold—which is much lighter than pure gold. Why don't they mention this statement of William's?		*William Smith, who MormonThink was happy to [[../../Website_reviews/W#\|quote]] as saying he only saw the plates covered (and which MormonThink tried to insist meant that ''no one'' had claimed to have seen the uncovered plates) specifically said the plates were a mixture of copper and gold—which is much lighter than pure gold. Why don't they mention this statement of William's?
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	}}		}}
			==== ====
	{{MormonThinkIndexClaim		{{MormonThinkIndexClaim
	\|claim=And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance -especially carrying a 50 lb. weight.		\|claim=And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance -especially carrying a 50 lb. weight.
	\|think=		\|think=
	~~\|quote=~~
	* MormonThink hopes we ignore the fact that if Joseph's account is ''true'' that God could well have blessed him beyond his own abilities. That said, Joseph [[Joseph_Smith/Early_Smith_family_history/Early_work_as_a_farmhand\|was well-known for his strength and ability to do serious amounts of physical work]], as well as wrestle and pull sticks—maybe he's in better physical shape that MormonThink wants to grant?		* MormonThink hopes we ignore the fact that if Joseph's account is ''true'' that God could well have blessed him beyond his own abilities. That said, Joseph [[Joseph_Smith/Early_Smith_family_history/Early_work_as_a_farmhand\|was well-known for his strength and ability to do serious amounts of physical work]], as well as wrestle and pull sticks—maybe he's in better physical shape that MormonThink wants to grant?
	* What evidence is there that Joseph's "slight limp" made it hard for him to run at high speed? Joseph managed fine during the Zion's Camp march of nearly a thousand miles on foot at 25-40 miles per day (Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling'', 239). He'd had the limp since his boyhood operation, and was likely well-adjusted to it.		* What evidence is there that Joseph's "slight limp" made it hard for him to run at high speed? Joseph managed fine during the Zion's Camp march of nearly a thousand miles on foot at 25-40 miles per day (Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling'', 239). He'd had the limp since his boyhood operation, and was likely well-adjusted to it.

GregSmith: /* */

2012-04-30T03:57:07Z

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	\|think=		\|think=
	* Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight\|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates.		* Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight\|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates.
	* Joseph's mother (who [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account\|told this story]]) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them and ran on.		* Joseph's mother (who [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account\|told this story]]) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them, knocked them down, and ran on.
	* MormonThink also doesn't tell us that Joseph's mother specifically said that one man had traveled sixty miles over the last day and night to get there--surely not someone who was well rested for a long footrace against young Joseph.		* MormonThink also doesn't tell us that Joseph's mother specifically said that one man who was probably involved in the attack had traveled sixty miles over the last day and night to get there--surely not someone who was well rested for a long footrace against young Joseph.
	* So, the key question would seem to be, "Was Joseph physically capable of incapacitating someone with a blow?" His well-known skill at wrestling and stick-pulling would suggest that this he was.		* So, the key question would seem to be, "Was Joseph physically capable of incapacitating someone with a blow, or slowing them enough to evade?" His well-known skill at wrestling and stick-pulling would suggest that this he was.

	\|quote=		\|quote=

GregSmith at 03:54, 30 April 2012

2012-04-30T03:54:41Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:54, 30 April 2012
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	The positions that this MormonThink article appears to take are the following:		The positions that this MormonThink article appears to take are the following:
	*		* The plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs.
			* Despite this, it is impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates.
			* Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him.
			* The story of Joseph escaping those who tried to take the plates is a "tall tale" that should not be taught.

	==== ====		==== ====

GregSmith: /* */

2012-04-30T03:52:37Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:52, 30 April 2012
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	\|claim=If the story is but a 'tall tale', regardless of its origins, it should not be taught in church as a true historical account, as we have been taught growing up in the church, just to provide a faith-promoting event.		\|claim=If the story is but a 'tall tale', regardless of its origins, it should not be taught in church as a true historical account, as we have been taught growing up in the church, just to provide a faith-promoting event.
	\|think=		\|think=
	* We have no reason to think it a "tall tale" save MormonThink's "[[Logical_fallacies/Page_1#Argument_from_ignorance\|argument from incredulity]]"—they don't believe it can be done, so therefore it's a tall tale. But, people clearly can and ''do'' do what Joseph claimed he did, especially when the story which his mother actually told (three separate attacks by individual men) is considered.		* We have no reason to think it a "tall tale" save MormonThink's "[[Logical_fallacies/Page_1#Argument_from_ignorance\|argument from incredulity]]"—they don't believe it can be done, so therefore it's a tall tale. But, people clearly can and ''do'' do what Joseph claimed he did, especially when the story which his [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account\|mother actually told]] (three separate attacks by individual men) is considered.
	* MormonThink needs to do better than this before labeling a "tall tale" just because they want a faith-destroying non-story.		* MormonThink needs to do better than this before labeling a "tall tale" just because they want a faith-destroying non-story.
	\|quote=		\|quote=

GregSmith: /* */

2012-04-30T03:52:02Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:52, 30 April 2012
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	\|think=		\|think=
	* Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight\|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates.		* Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight\|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates.
	* Joseph's mother (who told this story) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them and ran on.		* Joseph's mother (who [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account\|told this story]]) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them and ran on.
	* MormonThink also doesn't tell us that Joseph's mother specifically said that one man had traveled sixty miles over the last day and night to get there--surely not someone who was well rested for a long footrace against young Joseph.		* MormonThink also doesn't tell us that Joseph's mother specifically said that one man had traveled sixty miles over the last day and night to get there--surely not someone who was well rested for a long footrace against young Joseph.
	* So, the key question would seem to be, "Was Joseph physically capable of incapacitating someone with a blow?" His well-known skill at wrestling and stick-pulling would suggest that this he was.		* So, the key question would seem to be, "Was Joseph physically capable of incapacitating someone with a blow?" His well-known skill at wrestling and stick-pulling would suggest that this he was.