User:InProgress/Website reviews/JSW - Revision history

RogerNicholson: redirect

2012-05-10T01:30:35Z

redirect

GregSmith: /* */

2012-05-10T01:27:52Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:27, 10 May 2012
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	\|think=		\|think=
	*{{antispeak\|mutually exclusive}} So, now that we have spent considerable time to show how Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon ''himself'', we are now going to spend time considering that he may ''not'' have written it at all?		*{{antispeak\|mutually exclusive}} So, now that we have spent considerable time to show how Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon ''himself'', we are now going to spend time considering that he may ''not'' have written it at all?
			* MormonThink does not tell us that all historians and virtually all critics abandoned the "[[Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Spalding_manuscript\|Spalding theory]]" (which also involves [[Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Sidney_Rigdon\|Sidney Rigdon]]) more than a century ago.
			* The fact that there are "many theories" is not a strength--it illustrates that ''any'' explanation will do besides the one that Joseph offered, and yet the critics cannot come up with a consistent single story that fits all the evidence. So, they play bait-and-switch, offer part of one theory and then switch to another, even though the two theories are mutually incompatible.
			* Even MormonThink is doing that--they assure us that Joseph could easily have written the Book of Mormon, and then resort to these "many other theories."
	\|quote=		\|quote=
			\|link=Book of Mormon/Authorship theories/Spalding manuscript/Critical rejection
			\|subject=Rejection of the Spalding theory by critics of the Book of Mormon
			\|summary=Many ''critics'' of the Book of Mormon reject the Spalding theory as unworkable. If Mormonism's most prominent critics find the Spalding theory unworkable, then what motivates those who tenuously hold to this theory and continue to pursue it?
	}}		}}

GregSmith: /* */

2012-05-10T01:22:44Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:22, 10 May 2012
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	*{{antispeak\|mutually exclusive}} Although some apologists may believe that Joseph used a Bible during translation, how did he hide it as he was dictating using the stone and the hat? Did he completely and accurately ''memorize'' extensive passages from Isaiah?		*{{antispeak\|mutually exclusive}} Although some apologists may believe that Joseph used a Bible during translation, how did he hide it as he was dictating using the stone and the hat? Did he completely and accurately ''memorize'' extensive passages from Isaiah?
	\|quote=		\|quote=
			*Joseph's wife, Emma, would later say of the translation that he did not have a book to read from, and "[i]f he had had anything of the kind he could not have concealed it from me." - Joseph Smith III, "[[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method/1846-1900#Emma_Smith_Bidamon_.28eyewitness.29\|Last Testimony of Sister Emma]]," ''Saints' Herald'' 26 (October 1, 1879): 289–90; and Joseph Smith III, "Last Testimony of Sister Emma," ''Saints' Advocate'' 2 (October 1879): 50–52.
	}}		}}

GregSmith: /* */

2012-05-10T01:19:49Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:19, 10 May 2012
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	\|claim=The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had. However, lack of education does not mean lack of intelligence or imagination. The original grammar and the errors in the BOM is what would be expected from someone with limited formal education.		\|claim=The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had. However, lack of education does not mean lack of intelligence or imagination. The original grammar and the errors in the BOM is what would be expected from someone with limited formal education.
	\|think=		\|think=
	*Yes, we agree that Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon in his own~~, 19th Century~~ language.		*Yes, we agree that Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon in his own language.
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	}}		}}

GregSmith: /* */

2012-05-10T01:19:11Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:19, 10 May 2012
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	* Some [[Book_of_Mormon/Early_reactions_to/Joseph_Smith_the_author/Joseph_Smith_obvious_author/CriticalSources\|very early works]] believed that Joseph was the author.		* Some [[Book_of_Mormon/Early_reactions_to/Joseph_Smith_the_author/Joseph_Smith_obvious_author/CriticalSources\|very early works]] believed that Joseph was the author.
	* But, as people had time to study the Book of Mormon beyond superficial dismissal, this argument lost its force. Most then began claiming that it was [[Book_of_Mormon/Early_reactions_to/Joseph_Smith_the_author/Joseph_Smith_not_the_author/CriticalSources\|impossible]] for Joseph to have written it: they needed to blame [[Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Spalding_manuscript/CriticalSources\|Spalding (there are at least 40 examples in FAIR's records)]] and/or [[Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Sidney_Rigdon/CriticalSources\|Sidney Rigdon (at least 25 examples]]).		* But, as people had time to study the Book of Mormon beyond superficial dismissal, this argument lost its force. Most then began claiming that it was [[Book_of_Mormon/Early_reactions_to/Joseph_Smith_the_author/Joseph_Smith_not_the_author/CriticalSources\|impossible]] for Joseph to have written it: they needed to blame [[Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Spalding_manuscript/CriticalSources\|Spalding (there are at least 40 examples in FAIR's records)]] and/or [[Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Sidney_Rigdon/CriticalSources\|Sidney Rigdon (at least 25 examples]]).
	* Critics became so desperate that they concocted the Spalding theory to explain the Book of Mormon, since they didn't think Joseph could have written it. You can almost smell the relief in the critics:		* Critics became so desperate that they concocted the Spalding theory to explain the Book of Mormon, since they didn't think Joseph could have written it. An early newspaper pointed out how important this was:

			:We have long been waiting, with considerable anxiety, to see some of our cotemporaries attempt to explain the immediate causes, which produced that anomaly in religion and literature, which has most strikingly excited the curiosity of our friends at a distance, generally known under the cognomen of the Book of Mormon, or the Gold Bible. - {{CriticalWork:Reflector:6 January 1831:Gold Bible 1\|pages=76}}

			You can almost smell the relief in the critics when the Spalding theory appeared:

	<blockquote>The Mormon Bible.—The origin of this work which it has puzzled many to account for, evidently the production of a cultivated mind, yet found in the hands of		<blockquote>The Mormon Bible.—The origin of this work which it has puzzled many to account for, evidently the production of a cultivated mind, yet found in the hands of

GregSmith: /* */

2012-05-10T01:16:10Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:16, 10 May 2012
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	\|claim=Many parts of the BOM are identical to the Bible. Entire chapters of the Bible are contained within the BOM. Plagiarism is not difficult for anyone to do.		\|claim=Many parts of the BOM are identical to the Bible. Entire chapters of the Bible are contained within the BOM. Plagiarism is not difficult for anyone to do.
	\|think=		\|think=
	*Are you aware that those plagiarizing try to hide their source and pass the plagiarized text off as their own work? Joseph never claimed that the Biblical passages were his own work.		*Are you aware that those plagiarizing try to hide their source and pass the plagiarized text off as their own work? Joseph never claimed that the Biblical passages were his own work.
			*If Joseph was trying to run a scam, why did he quote from the one book (the KJV of the Bible) that every reader would be sure to know? Whoever wrote the Book of Mormon was clearly able to produce large amounts of text without plagiarizing the Bible--why did he do so, and "give the game away"? What would be more likely to arouse the notice or ire of the Bible believing public?
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	\|response=		\|response=

GregSmith: /* */

2012-05-10T01:06:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:06, 10 May 2012
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	*It was Joseph himself that said in his 1832 journal that he was "deprived of the benefit of an education."		*It was Joseph himself that said in his 1832 journal that he was "deprived of the benefit of an education."
			*Again, why did Joseph's contemporaries not think him capable of the Book of Mormon? 21st century "homeschooling" has nothing to do with education on the frontier of 19th century America.
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	*Here's what Joseph wrote in 1832 (original spelling retained):		*Here's what Joseph wrote in 1832 (original spelling retained):
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	I was born in the town of Charon [Sharon] in the <ins>State</ins> of vermont North America on the twenty third day of December AD 1805 of goodly Parents who spared no pains to instructing me in <ins>the</ins> christian religion at the age of about ten years my Father Joseph Smith Siegnior moved to Palmyra Ontario County in the State of New York and being in indigent circumstances were obliged to labour hard for the support of a large Family having nine chilldren and as it required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the Family therefore we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructid in reading <del>and</del> writing and the ground <ins>rules</ins> of Arithmatic which constuted my whole literary acquirements.		I was born in the town of Charon [Sharon] in the <ins>State</ins> of vermont North America on the twenty third day of December AD 1805 of goodly Parents who spared no pains to instructing me in <ins>the</ins> christian religion at the age of about ten years my Father Joseph Smith Siegnior moved to Palmyra Ontario County in the State of New York and being in indigent circumstances were obliged to labour hard for the support of a large Family having nine chilldren and as it required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the Family therefore we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructid in reading <del>and</del> writing and the ground <ins>rules</ins> of Arithmatic which constuted my whole literary acquirements.
	</blockquote>		</blockquote>

			Who would have known Joseph's abilities and weaknesses better than his wife?

			:Joseph Smith could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, and was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired, it is marvelous to me, 'a marvel and a wonder,' as much so as to anyone else. - Joseph Smith III, "Last Testimony of Sister Emma," ''Saints' Herald'' 26 (October 1, 1879): 289–90; and Joseph Smith III, "Last Testimony of Sister Emma," ''Saints' Advocate'' 2 (October 1879): 50–52.

			This doesn't sound like most home-schoolers today. Why does MormonThink not use the historical record, instead of drawing false comparisons?
	}}		}}

RogerNicholson: mod

2012-05-09T15:05:51Z

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@@ Line 24: / Line 24: @@
 *That Joseph was indeed educated because he was "home schooled," despite Joseph's own words stating that he was ''not'' well educated.
 *That Joseph used a curtain to shield the process of translation from those around him so that he could consult all of his notes, and that Joseph openly translated in the presence of others using a stone and a hat without the use of notes.
 ==== ====
@@ Line 543: / Line 544: @@
 *{{antispeak|spaghetti}}
 *If you don't believe in the "gift and power of God," than any one of these explanations will do.
 |quote=
 }}

RogerNicholson: /* */ mod

2012-05-09T15:04:06Z

: mod

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:04, 9 May 2012
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	\|claim=Ending summary by critics. The book is clearly of purely human origin, penned by an author with a vivid imagination ....Together with the duplicity of Smith's associates Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer, their affirmation of the Book of Mormon as a part of "God's restoration of the true Church" helped attract the hundreds, than thousands who would travel with them across the Midwest to create their own religious utopia, Zion, which would evolve into the LDS Church of today.		\|claim=Ending summary by critics. The book is clearly of purely human origin, penned by an author with a vivid imagination ....Together with the duplicity of Smith's associates Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer, their affirmation of the Book of Mormon as a part of "God's restoration of the true Church" helped attract the hundreds, than thousands who would travel with them across the Midwest to create their own religious utopia, Zion, which would evolve into the LDS Church of today.
	\|think=		\|think=
	{{antispeak\|liars}} So, the critics just dismiss everyone as liars and move on. This is easier than dealing with what the witnesses actually said.		*{{antispeak\|liars}} So, the critics just dismiss everyone as liars and move on. This is easier than dealing with what the witnesses actually said.
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	}}		}}

RogerNicholson: /* */ mod

2012-05-09T15:03:37Z

: mod

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:03, 9 May 2012
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	\|claim=Some people believe that Joseph Smith's hand was moving by some strange force like the channelers do. Now the channeling hypotheses cannot be dismissed out of hand. Joseph was trained by his father in the hermitic arts. His use of the seer stone is consistent with a long tradition stretching back to Europe. Our Thoughts: We don't give credence to any particular theory of channeling, but just state that those who "believe" (or who say that they do) are capable of complex and lengthy documents that seem to greatly exceed the normal capabilities demonstrated by the 'mediums' when not in a trance.		\|claim=Some people believe that Joseph Smith's hand was moving by some strange force like the channelers do. Now the channeling hypotheses cannot be dismissed out of hand. Joseph was trained by his father in the hermitic arts. His use of the seer stone is consistent with a long tradition stretching back to Europe. Our Thoughts: We don't give credence to any particular theory of channeling, but just state that those who "believe" (or who say that they do) are capable of complex and lengthy documents that seem to greatly exceed the normal capabilities demonstrated by the 'mediums' when not in a trance.
	\|think=		\|think=
			*{{antispeak\|spaghetti}} So, just in case Joseph didn't write it, and just in case Oliver Cowdery or Sidney Rigdon didn't write it, we will throw in the possibility that the Book of Mormon ''simply wrote itself.'' That should cover every possible way of explaining the Book of Mormon without having to believe in God's hand in it.
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	}}		}}