User:InProgress/Website reviews/F - Revision history

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	\|claim=Another potential evidence that Joseph Smith did not see the Father and the Son in 1820, to those who believe in the restoration of the Priesthood, is the fact that in the year 1832 Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood. This revelation is published as Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants.		\|claim=Another potential evidence that Joseph Smith did not see the Father and the Son in 1820, to those who believe in the restoration of the Priesthood, is the fact that in the year 1832 Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood. This revelation is published as Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants.
	\|think=		\|think=
	When D&C 84:21-22 is analyzed in context then an interpretation emerges that does not support the one proposed by the Prophet's critics. The relevant words read:		*When D&C 84:21-22 is analyzed in context then an interpretation emerges that does not support the one proposed by the Prophet's critics. The relevant words read:
	<blockquote>		<blockquote>
	[19] "And this greater [i.e., Melchizedek] priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. [20] Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, '''the power of godliness''' is manifest. [21] And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, '''the power of godliness''' is not manifest unto men in the flesh; [22] For without '''this''' no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live."		[19] "And this greater [i.e., Melchizedek] priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. [20] Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, '''the power of godliness''' is manifest. [21] And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, '''the power of godliness''' is not manifest unto men in the flesh; [22] For without '''this''' no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live."
	</blockquote>		</blockquote>
	The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness."{{ref\|robinson1}} One of the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood is the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (see {{s\|\|DC\|49\|14}}). As the Lord explained in an 1831 revelation, "no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God" ({{s\|\|DC\|67\|11}}).		*The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness."{{ref\|robinson1}} One of the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood is the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (see {{s\|\|DC\|49\|14}}). As the Lord explained in an 1831 revelation, "no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God" ({{s\|\|DC\|67\|11}}).
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	\|response=		\|response=

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	How many people forget where they were when their first child was born? Or when they got their patriarchal blessing? Or their wedding night? How many forget who they were with and what happened? If we can remember details such as year, circumstance and those involved, why couldn't Joseph Smith consistently recall basic facts about his incredible First Vision?		How many people forget where they were when their first child was born? Or when they got their patriarchal blessing? Or their wedding night? How many forget who they were with and what happened? If we can remember details such as year, circumstance and those involved, why couldn't Joseph Smith consistently recall basic facts about his incredible First Vision?
	\|think=		\|think=
	{{antispeak\|mocking}} Note the characterization of Joseph's "powerful experience" and "incredible" First Vision.		*{{antispeak\|mocking}} Note the characterization of Joseph's "powerful experience" and "incredible" First Vision.
	*Joseph ''did'' remember consistently where he was and when it happened.		*Joseph ''did'' remember consistently where he was and when it happened.
	*How many of you forget the date of your anniversary? Or your dates of your kids' birthdays?		*How many of you forget the date of your anniversary? Or your dates of your kids' birthdays?

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	\|think=		\|think=
	{{Antispeak\|doesn't count}}		*{{Antispeak\|doesn't count}} No, it isn't clear at all: Where does the Church claim that the 1838 account is the "only version" of these events?
	*No, it isn't clear at all: Where does the Church claim that the 1838 account is the "only version" of these events?
	*Oh wait....there's an "update" all the way near the bottom of the article. Why not just update the information being shown instead of stating things at the beginning of the article that are not true, then providing a small "update" at the end of the article that corrects it?		*Oh wait....there's an "update" all the way near the bottom of the article. Why not just update the information being shown instead of stating things at the beginning of the article that are not true, then providing a small "update" at the end of the article that corrects it?
	*Did you mean to say that these accounts are "relatively ignored" ''except'' when they are ''mentioned in the ''Ensign'' and on the official Church website lds.org''?		*Did you mean to say that these accounts are "relatively ignored" ''except'' when they are ''mentioned in the ''Ensign'' and on the official Church website lds.org''?

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	{{MormonThinkSummaryHeader\|The First Vision}}		{{MormonThinkSummaryHeader\|The First Vision}}
	*That the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him.		*That the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him.
	*That local newspapers would have been interested in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God ~~enough~~ to have published it.		*That local newspapers would have been interested enough in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God to have published it.
	*That earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official," whatever that means.		*That earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official," whatever that means.
	*That Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an [http://lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org] and various mentions in the ''Ensign'', including a [http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66a205481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD statement by Gordon B. Hinckley].		*That Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an [http://lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org] and various mentions in the ''Ensign'', including a [http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66a205481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD statement by Gordon B. Hinckley].

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	#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}		#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}
	#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}		#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}
	#{{note\|~~XXX~~}}		#{{note\|robinson1}} "...godliness can be permanently, individually attained only through the ordinances of the holy priesthood. Nevertheless, 'godliness' or being like God can be attained temporarily in another way - by transfiguration. If the Holy Ghost enters into our physical bodies, so that for a moment we become one with the Spirit, then have been thus 'transfigured' to godliness, we are able to see the face of God and live." {{Book:Robinson Garret:Commentary on the D&C:3\|pages=32-33}}
	#{{note\|lucy.mack.smith.145}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=145}}		#{{note\|lucy.mack.smith.145}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=145}}

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	#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}		#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}
	#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}		#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}
			#{{note\|XXX}}
			#{{note\|lucy.mack.smith.145}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=145}}

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	* Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also noted that other Christian denominations took issue with the new Church because of its teachings about God, noting that in 1830:		* Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also noted that other Christian denominations took issue with the new Church because of its teachings about God, noting that in 1830:

	:the different denominations are very much opposed to us.... ~~The~~ Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle.{{ref\|~~lms1~~}}		:the different denominations are very much opposed to us.... the Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle.{{ref\|lucy.mack.smith.145}}

	* All this is less than a year from the Church's organization. Some members may have not internalized these ideas, or may have been slow to abandon ideas about God rooted in two millennia of Christian history, but MormonThink's claim simply does not match the earliest documents.		* All this is less than a year from the Church's organization. Some members may have not internalized these ideas, or may have been slow to abandon ideas about God rooted in two millennia of Christian history, but MormonThink's claim simply does not match the earliest documents.

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 |claim=It is obvious by the above statements by church leaders that the First Vision did not happen in the way the Church portrays.  The church would have you believe that Joseph had the vision in 1820 and that it has always been the central part of the LDS faith.  In fact the one, simple, plain truth that every member that joined the church should have known is that God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings.  We take this for granted now but this wasn't firmly established until over 15 years after the event supposedly occurred.
 |think=
 |quote=
 }}

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	{{Website response summary}}		{{Website response summary}}

	The ~~positions~~ that ~~this MormonThink article appears~~ to ~~take~~ are ~~the following:~~		{{MormonThinkSummaryHeader\|The First Vision}}
			*That the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him.
			*That local newspapers would have been interested in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God enough to have published it.
			*That earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official," whatever that means.
	*That Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an [http://lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org] and various mentions in the ''Ensign'', including a [http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66a205481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD statement by Gordon B. Hinckley].		*That Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an [http://lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org] and various mentions in the ''Ensign'', including a [http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66a205481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD statement by Gordon B. Hinckley].
			*That Joseph embellished his vision story in 1838 to bolster his leadership during a time of apostasy, despite the fact that he told the same story to strangers visiting his house three years earlier in 1835.

	==== ====		==== ====

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	#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}		#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}
	#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}		#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}
	#{{note\|~~XXX~~}}		#{{note\|robinson1}} "...godliness can be permanently, individually attained only through the ordinances of the holy priesthood. Nevertheless, 'godliness' or being like God can be attained temporarily in another way - by transfiguration. If the Holy Ghost enters into our physical bodies, so that for a moment we become one with the Spirit, then have been thus 'transfigured' to godliness, we are able to see the face of God and live." {{Book:Robinson Garret:Commentary on the D&C:3\|pages=32-33}}
	#{{note\|lucy.mack.smith.145}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=145}}		#{{note\|lucy.mack.smith.145}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=145}}

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	#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}		#{{note\|lucy.74b}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=74}}
	#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}		#{{note\|lucy.48b}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=48}}
			#{{note\|XXX}}
			#{{note\|lucy.mack.smith.145}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short\|pages=145}}