Supposed contradictions in LDS scripture/2 Nephi 31 - Revision history

GregSmith: Redirected page to Question: Do Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 and 2 Nephi 31:17 or 3 Nephi 12:2 contradict one another regarding the order in which one receives baptism and a remission of sins?

2024-05-07T06:29:43Z

Redirected page to Question: Do Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 and 2 Nephi 31:17 or 3 Nephi 12:2 contradict one another regarding the order in which one receives baptism and a remission of sins?

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:29, 7 May 2024
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	#REDIRECT [[~~Latter-day Saint scripture/Supposed contradictions/Remission~~ of sins ~~before or after baptism~~]]		#REDIRECT [[Question: Do Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 and 2 Nephi 31:17 or 3 Nephi 12:2 contradict one another regarding the order in which one receives baptism and a remission of sins?]]

RogerNicholson: mod

2010-02-25T03:27:37Z

mod

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:27, 25 February 2010
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	#REDIRECT [[Supposed contradictions ~~in LDS scripture~~/Remission of sins before or after baptism]]		#REDIRECT [[Latter-day Saint scripture/Supposed contradictions/Remission of sins before or after baptism]]

GregSmith: Redirected page to Supposed contradictions in LDS scripture/Remission of sins before or after baptism

2009-06-30T02:37:33Z

Redirected page to Supposed contradictions in LDS scripture/Remission of sins before or after baptism

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:37, 30 June 2009
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	~~==Criticism==~~		#REDIRECT [[Supposed contradictions in LDS scripture/Remission of sins before or after baptism]]

	~~Critics claim that {{s\|2\|Nephi\|31\|7}} and {{s\|\|DC\|20\|37}} are contradictory because of the order~~ in ~~which one is said to be forgiven—before or after baptism by water.~~

	~~===Source(s) of the criticism===~~
	* {{nw}}

	~~===The~~ scripture ~~text===~~

	~~{\| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"~~
	~~!width="50%"\|2 Nephi 31:7~~
	~~!width="50%"\|D&C 20:37~~
	\|-
	\|
	Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of ~~your~~ sins ~~by fire and by the Holy Ghost.~~
	\|\|
	~~And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves~~ before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.
	\|-
	\|}

	~~==Response==~~

	~~These scriptures are not contradictory, for at least three reasons, any one of which is sufficient to disprove the claim.~~

	~~===Reason #1===~~

	~~''The scriptures are discussing two slightly separate issues''~~

	~~There is a difference between "received of the Spirit of Christ" (which is given to every man—see {{s\|\|Moroni\|7\|16}}—but may be received~~ or ~~not depending on choices and heed paid to it) and the baptism of "fire and the Holy Ghost" which happens~~ after baptism~~. As Joseph Smith taught:~~

	:There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.{{ref\|tpjs.199}}

	~~===Reason #2===~~

	~~''The audience and presumed intent of the audience is different for each scripture''~~

	In the Doctrine and Covenants, those of whom the scripture speaks have repented and expressed a desire to be baptized, which desire and sincerity can then lead to a remission of their sins, (i.e., the intent is what matters, and a willingness to follow through).

	In the Book of Mormon scripture, Nephi is encouraging those who may not have accepted the Messiah to do so, and to obey the commandments and example given by the Messiah--including baptism. So the target audience is those who have perhaps not yet "desire[d] to be baptized." When they have that desire (through the Spirit of Christ), repent and hearken to it, they will choose to be baptized. This will lead to forgiveness, and the baptism of fire and the purging out of sin that comes with the receipt of the Holy Ghost (after baptism).

	~~===Reason #3===~~
	~~''The question presupposes that "forgiveness" is a single, unique event, when in fact it is an on-going process''~~

	The criticism implicitly views LDS theology through conservative protestant lenses, in which someone is "saved" once and finally by some type of "altar call" or confession. By contrast, LDS theology sees salvation, repentance, forgiveness, and purification and transformation by the Holy Ghost as on-going processes. The process begins before baptism, leads us to baptism, and is the fulfillment of the promises and covenants of baptism, which must then be persisted in as we "endure to the end."

	~~==Conclusion==~~

	~~As is typical in such charges of self-contradiction, the critics either:~~
	* misinterpret LDS scripture
	* compare verses of scripture which are not speaking about identical issues
	* read Protestant terminology or theology into LDS scripture.

	~~In this case, the critics have committed all three mistakes.~~
	~~==Endnotes==~~
	~~#{{note\|js.199}} {{TPJS1\|start=199}}~~

GregSmith at 17:43, 15 June 2009

2009-06-15T17:43:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:43, 15 June 2009
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	==Conclusion==		==Conclusion==

			As is typical in such charges of self-contradiction, the critics either:
			* misinterpret LDS scripture
			* compare verses of scripture which are not speaking about identical issues
			* read Protestant terminology or theology into LDS scripture.

			In this case, the critics have committed all three mistakes.
	==Endnotes==		==Endnotes==
	#{{note\|js.199}} {{TPJS1\|start=199}}		#{{note\|js.199}} {{TPJS1\|start=199}}

GregSmith: /* Endnotes */

2009-06-15T17:42:01Z

Endnotes

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:42, 15 June 2009
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	==Endnotes==		==Endnotes==
	#{{note\|js.199]} {{TPJS1\|start=199}}		#{{note\|js.199}} {{TPJS1\|start=199}}

GregSmith: /* Response */

2009-06-15T17:41:28Z

Response

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:41, 15 June 2009
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	===Reason #1===		===Reason #1===

			''The scriptures are discussing two slightly separate issues''

			There is a difference between "received of the Spirit of Christ" (which is given to every man—see {{s\|\|Moroni\|7\|16}}—but may be received or not depending on choices and heed paid to it) and the baptism of "fire and the Holy Ghost" which happens after baptism. As Joseph Smith taught:

			:There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.{{ref\|tpjs.199}}

	===Reason #2===		===Reason #2===

			''The audience and presumed intent of the audience is different for each scripture''

			In the Doctrine and Covenants, those of whom the scripture speaks have repented and expressed a desire to be baptized, which desire and sincerity can then lead to a remission of their sins, (i.e., the intent is what matters, and a willingness to follow through).

			In the Book of Mormon scripture, Nephi is encouraging those who may not have accepted the Messiah to do so, and to obey the commandments and example given by the Messiah--including baptism. So the target audience is those who have perhaps not yet "desire[d] to be baptized." When they have that desire (through the Spirit of Christ), repent and hearken to it, they will choose to be baptized. This will lead to forgiveness, and the baptism of fire and the purging out of sin that comes with the receipt of the Holy Ghost (after baptism).

	===Reason #3===		===Reason #3===
			''The question presupposes that "forgiveness" is a single, unique event, when in fact it is an on-going process''

			The criticism implicitly views LDS theology through conservative protestant lenses, in which someone is "saved" once and finally by some type of "altar call" or confession. By contrast, LDS theology sees salvation, repentance, forgiveness, and purification and transformation by the Holy Ghost as on-going processes. The process begins before baptism, leads us to baptism, and is the fulfillment of the promises and covenants of baptism, which must then be persisted in as we "endure to the end."

	==Conclusion==		==Conclusion==

GregSmith: Created page with '==Criticism== Critics claim that {{s|2|Nephi|31|7}} and {{s||DC|20|37}} are contradictory because of the order in which one is said to be forgiven—before or after baptism …'

2009-06-15T17:38:26Z

Created page with '==Criticism== Critics claim that {{s|2|Nephi|31|7}} and {{s||DC|20|37}} are contradictory because of the order in which one is said to be forgiven—before or after baptism …'

New page

==Criticism==

Critics claim that {{s|2|Nephi|31|7}} and {{s||DC|20|37}} are contradictory because of the order in which one is said to be forgiven—before or after baptism by water.

===Source(s) of the criticism===
* {{nw}}

===The scripture text===

{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
!width="50%"|2 Nephi 31:7
!width="50%"|D&C 20:37
|-
|
Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
||
And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.
|-
|}

==Response==

These scriptures are not contradictory, for at least three reasons, any one of which is sufficient to disprove the claim.

===Reason #1===

===Reason #2===

===Reason #3===

==Conclusion==

==Endnotes==
#{{note|js.199]} {{TPJS1|start=199}}