Kinderhook Plates - Revision history

GregSmith: /* Why is the statement of William Clayton regarding the Kinderhook Plates in History of the Church written as if Joseph Smith himself said it? */

2024-05-20T07:42:43Z

Why is the statement of William Clayton regarding the Kinderhook Plates in History of the Church written as if Joseph Smith himself said it?

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	{{To learn more box:Kinderhook plates}}		{{To learn more box:Kinderhook plates}}{{blankline}}

	{{Critical sources box:Forgeries related to Mormonism/Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates/CriticalSources}}{{blankline}}		{{Critical sources box:Forgeries related to Mormonism/Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates/CriticalSources}}{{blankline}}

GregSmith: /* Joseph Smith "translated" a portion of those plates, not by claiming inspiration, but by comparing characters on the plates to those on his "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language" (GAEL) */

2024-05-20T07:42:04Z

Joseph Smith "translated" a portion of those plates, not by claiming inspiration, but by comparing characters on the plates to those on his "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language" (GAEL)

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	</blockquote>		</blockquote>
	We know that Joseph was interested in languages. He studied Greek, Hebrew, and German in a secular manner. Therefore, we can easily believe that he attempted to translate the Kinderhook plates without assuming prophetic powers, which powers consequently remain credible.		We know that Joseph was interested in languages. He studied Greek, Hebrew, and German in a secular manner. Therefore, we can easily believe that he attempted to translate the Kinderhook plates without assuming prophetic powers, which powers consequently remain credible.


	=There are 11 important documents to deal with when dealing with the Kinderhook Plates. This article examines all of them.=		=There are 11 important documents to deal with when dealing with the Kinderhook Plates. This article examines all of them.=

GregSmith at 07:33, 20 May 2024

2024-05-20T07:33:19Z

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	{{Main Page}}		{{Main Page}}
	{{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}		{{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}{{blankline}}
			{{Navigation:Latter-day Saint history}}{{blankline}}

	{{Navigation:Latter-day Saint history}}

	=What are the Kinderhook Plates?=		=What are the Kinderhook Plates?=

GregSmith: /* */

2024-05-20T07:33:00Z

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	\|subject=Could the "Egyptian Alphabet" used in an attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates have actually been the Anthon transcript?		\|subject=Could the "Egyptian Alphabet" used in an attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates have actually been the Anthon transcript?
	\|summary=A non-Mormon made the following statement regarding the Kinderhook Plates: ""They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian alphabet, which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated..." Why does the non-Mormon eyewitness say that the "Egyptian Alphabet" was "from the plates which the Book of Mormon was translated?"		\|summary=A non-Mormon made the following statement regarding the Kinderhook Plates: ""They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian alphabet, which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated..." Why does the non-Mormon eyewitness say that the "Egyptian Alphabet" was "from the plates which the Book of Mormon was translated?"
	}}

	~~===== =====~~
	~~{{SummaryItem~~
	~~\|link=Forgeries related to Mormonism/Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates/Accounts~~
	~~\|subject=Accounts~~
	~~\|summary=A summary of all of the accounts of the recovery of the Kinderhook plates.~~
	}}		}}

GregSmith: /* */

2024-05-20T07:32:39Z

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	</blockquote>		</blockquote>

	~~===== =====~~
	{{SummaryItem		{{SummaryItem
	\|link=Forgeries related to Mormonism/Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates/Could the "Egyptian Alphabet" have been the Anthon transcript		\|link=Forgeries related to Mormonism/Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates/Could the "Egyptian Alphabet" have been the Anthon transcript
	\|subject=Could the "Egyptian Alphabet" used in an attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates have actually been the Anthon transcript?		\|subject=Could the "Egyptian Alphabet" used in an attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates have actually been the Anthon transcript?
	\|summary=A non-Mormon made the following statement regarding the Kinderhook Plates: ""They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian alphabet, which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated..." Why does the non-Mormon eyewitness say that the "Egyptian Alphabet" was "from the plates which the Book of Mormon was translated?"		\|summary=A non-Mormon made the following statement regarding the Kinderhook Plates: ""They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian alphabet, which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated..." Why does the non-Mormon eyewitness say that the "Egyptian Alphabet" was "from the plates which the Book of Mormon was translated?"
	~~\|L1=Question: Why does the non-Mormon eyewitness say that the "Egyptian Alphabet" was "from the plates which the Book of Mormon was translated"?~~
	~~\|L2=Question: When was the "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language" produced?~~
	~~\|L3=Question: Couldn't the "Egyptian Alphabet" have referred to the "reformed Egyptian" characters on the Anthon transcript?~~
	~~\|L4=Question: Does anyone assert that the GAEL was an actual correlation between Egyptian and the explanations offered?~~
	}}		}}

	===== =====		===== =====
	{{SummaryItem		{{SummaryItem

GregSmith: /* Wilbur Fugate 30 June 1879 */

2024-05-20T07:32:03Z

Wilbur Fugate 30 June 1879

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	<blockquote>Those plates are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. … None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I.		<blockquote>Those plates are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. … None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I.

	We read in Pratt’s prophecy that ‘Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.’ [The quote is from Parley P. Pratt’s 1837 missionary tract Voice of Warning.] We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.<ref>W. Fugate to Mr. Cobb, 30 June 1879, Mound Station, Illinois and Fugate affidavit of same date</ref></blockquote>		We read in Pratt’s prophecy that ‘Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.’ [The quote is from Parley P. Pratt’s 1837 missionary tract ''Voice of Warning''.] We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.<ref>W. Fugate to Mr. Cobb, 30 June 1879, Mound Station, Illinois and Fugate affidavit of same date</ref></blockquote>

	==Stanley Kimball Article (Ensign, Aug 1981)==		==Stanley Kimball Article (Ensign, Aug 1981)==

GregSmith: /* Wilbur Fugate 30 June 1879 */

2024-05-20T07:31:39Z

Wilbur Fugate 30 June 1879

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	Later he declared in affidavit:		Later he declared in affidavit:
	<blockquote>[Those plates are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. … None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I.		<blockquote>Those plates are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. … None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I.

	We read in Pratt’s prophecy that ‘Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.’ [The quote is from Parley P. Pratt’s 1837 missionary tract Voice of Warning.] We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.<ref>W. Fugate to Mr. Cobb, 30 June 1879, Mound Station, Illinois and Fugate affidavit of same date</ref></blockquote>		We read in Pratt’s prophecy that ‘Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.’ [The quote is from Parley P. Pratt’s 1837 missionary tract Voice of Warning.] We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.<ref>W. Fugate to Mr. Cobb, 30 June 1879, Mound Station, Illinois and Fugate affidavit of same date</ref></blockquote>

GregSmith: /* Wilbur Fugate 30 June 1879 */

2024-05-20T07:31:24Z

Wilbur Fugate 30 June 1879

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	Later he declared in affidavit:		Later he declared in affidavit:
	<blockquote>[Those plates are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. … None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I.		<blockquote>[Those plates are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. … None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except Wiley and I.
	~~<br><br>~~
	We read in Pratt’s prophecy that ‘Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.’ [The quote is from Parley P. Pratt’s 1837 missionary tract Voice of Warning.] We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.<ref>W. Fugate to Mr. Cobb, 30 June 1879, Mound Station, Illinois and Fugate affidavit of same date</ref></blockquote>		We read in Pratt’s prophecy that ‘Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.’ [The quote is from Parley P. Pratt’s 1837 missionary tract Voice of Warning.] We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.<ref>W. Fugate to Mr. Cobb, 30 June 1879, Mound Station, Illinois and Fugate affidavit of same date</ref></blockquote>

GregSmith: /* Did Joseph attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates using the "gift and power of God?" */

2024-05-20T07:30:57Z

Did Joseph attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates using the "gift and power of God?"

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	=Did Joseph attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates using the "gift and power of God?"=		=Did Joseph attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates using the "gift and power of God?"=
	[[File:Mormoninfographic.kinderhook.josephs.gift.jpg\|500 px\|thumb\|~~left~~\|This shows the hostile "Mormoninfographic" that tells part of the story, but will still probably misread readers.]]		[[File:Mormoninfographic.kinderhook.josephs.gift.jpg\|500 px\|thumb\|right\|This shows the hostile "Mormoninfographic" that tells part of the story, but will still probably misread readers.]]
	==Joseph apparently did not attempt to translate by the "gift and power of God". Joseph never translated more than the single character==		==Joseph apparently did not attempt to translate by the "gift and power of God". Joseph never translated more than the single character==

GregSmith at 07:30, 20 May 2024

2024-05-20T07:30:35Z

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	=Did Joseph Smith attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates?=		=Did Joseph Smith attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates?=
			[[File:Kinderhook.plates.don.bradley.description.jpg\|right\|500 px\|thumb\|This data was introduced by {{Bradley:President Joseph Has Translated a Portion:2011 FAIR Conference}}]]
	==Joseph Smith attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhood Plates by matching it to his "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL)"==		==Joseph Smith attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhood Plates by matching it to his "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL)"==

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	*As William Clayton noted in his journal, Joseph "translated a portion" of the Kinderhook plates. Joseph attempted to translate one of the characters on the plates by matching it to a similar character on the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL), a document that was produced in the same timeframe as the Book of Abraham. It is from the GAEL that he derived the "descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh" meaning.		*As William Clayton noted in his journal, Joseph "translated a portion" of the Kinderhook plates. Joseph attempted to translate one of the characters on the plates by matching it to a similar character on the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL), a document that was produced in the same timeframe as the Book of Abraham. It is from the GAEL that he derived the "descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh" meaning.
	~~[[File:Kinderhook.plates.don.bradley.description.jpg\|right\|500 px\|thumb\|This data was introduced by {{Bradley:President Joseph Has Translated a Portion:2011 FAIR Conference}}]]~~

	=Did Joseph attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates using the "gift and power of God?"=		=Did Joseph attempt to translate the Kinderhook Plates using the "gift and power of God?"=
			[[File:Mormoninfographic.kinderhook.josephs.gift.jpg\|500 px\|thumb\|left\|This shows the hostile "Mormoninfographic" that tells part of the story, but will still probably misread readers.]]
	==Joseph apparently did not attempt to translate by the "gift and power of God". Joseph never translated more than the single character==		==Joseph apparently did not attempt to translate by the "gift and power of God". Joseph never translated more than the single character==