Joseph Smith's Rocky Mountain prophecy - Revision history

SpencerMarsh at 14:25, 18 February 2026

2026-02-18T14:25:32Z

GregSmith at 17:57, 20 May 2024

2024-05-20T17:57:16Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:57, 20 May 2024
Line 164:		Line 164:

	As we have seen above, there are accounts of Joseph discussing the matter at least as early as 1834.		As we have seen above, there are accounts of Joseph discussing the matter at least as early as 1834.
	</~~onlyinclude>~~		{{Critical sources box:Joseph Smith/Alleged false prophecies/Forged Rocky Mountain prophecy/Tanners use of sources/CriticalSources}}{{blankline}}

	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}
	<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->		<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->
	[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]		[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]
	[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]		[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]

GregSmith at 17:54, 20 May 2024

2024-05-20T17:54:09Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:54, 20 May 2024
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{Main Page}}		{{Main Page}}
	{{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}		{{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}{{blankline}}

			=Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?=
	~~{{Header}}~~		==To accept a "forgery" theory, we must accept that all of the people listed who remembered Joseph speaking about the Rocky Mountains were lying or fabricating their experience==

	==Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?==
	===To accept a "forgery" theory, we must accept that all of the people listed who remembered Joseph speaking about the Rocky Mountains were lying or fabricating their experience===

	Furthermore, we must also accept that Joseph was sending explorers to the west with no real expectation of moving, and the discussion of heading west by both members and enemies was all idle talk.		Furthermore, we must also accept that Joseph was sending explorers to the west with no real expectation of moving, and the discussion of heading west by both members and enemies was all idle talk.
Line 12:		Line 9:
	Furthermore, the mention of moving to the west is often incidental—Church leaders mention the matter as if many of their hearers from Nauvoo would recall it. No great effort is made to establish the truth of the matter; it is presumed to be too obvious to require much demonstration.		Furthermore, the mention of moving to the west is often incidental—Church leaders mention the matter as if many of their hearers from Nauvoo would recall it. No great effort is made to establish the truth of the matter; it is presumed to be too obvious to require much demonstration.

	===The source of the prophecy account===		==The source of the prophecy account==

	The prophecy source is the biography of Anson Call, in August 1842. The relevant section reads as follows:		The prophecy source is the biography of Anson Call, in August 1842. The relevant section reads as follows:
Line 36:		Line 33:
	None of this, to be sure, proves that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. But, to claim that the account of him discussing and even prophesying a move to the west rests on nothing but "forgery" is to distort and ignore too many sources, from too broad a time period, over what is essentially a peripheral issue.		None of this, to be sure, proves that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. But, to claim that the account of him discussing and even prophesying a move to the west rests on nothing but "forgery" is to distort and ignore too many sources, from too broad a time period, over what is essentially a peripheral issue.

	===How have less friendly historians treated this prophecy?===		==How have less friendly historians treated this prophecy?==

	We have seen that believing historians such as B. H. Roberts or Orson F. Whitney would be likely to accept this claim. How have less friendly historians treated it?		We have seen that believing historians such as B. H. Roberts or Orson F. Whitney would be likely to accept this claim. How have less friendly historians treated it?
Line 58:		Line 55:
	Thus, Morgan thought it clear that Joseph Smith had intended to go to the Rockies with the Saints, and felt it plausible that Joseph had made a prophecy to that effect. Thus, whatever the facts, it seems unlikely that a crude "forgery" is at work.		Thus, Morgan thought it clear that Joseph Smith had intended to go to the Rockies with the Saints, and felt it plausible that Joseph had made a prophecy to that effect. Thus, whatever the facts, it seems unlikely that a crude "forgery" is at work.

	===Many other Church members later wrote about Joseph's discussion of the Rocky Mountains area===		==Many other Church members later wrote about Joseph's discussion of the Rocky Mountains area==

	Before the ''Nauvoo Expositor'' incident, Benjamin F. Johnson said,		Before the ''Nauvoo Expositor'' incident, Benjamin F. Johnson said,
Line 122:		Line 119:
	Woodruff would also copy Philo Dibble's record of Joseph's last address to the Nauvoo legion, noting that "''Broth J Jaques'' this Book is W Woodruffs private Historical Book. I wish you to take special care of it yourself until I call for it. I wish you to copy last pages in red ink & file in the office as it is the Last Address of Joseph Smith before his death [from Philo Dibble] and I think we have no Copy of it in the office. The Book itself I wish locked up." <ref>{{WWJ1\|vol=8\|start=appendix\|date=24 November 1878}}</ref>		Woodruff would also copy Philo Dibble's record of Joseph's last address to the Nauvoo legion, noting that "''Broth J Jaques'' this Book is W Woodruffs private Historical Book. I wish you to take special care of it yourself until I call for it. I wish you to copy last pages in red ink & file in the office as it is the Last Address of Joseph Smith before his death [from Philo Dibble] and I think we have no Copy of it in the office. The Book itself I wish locked up." <ref>{{WWJ1\|vol=8\|start=appendix\|date=24 November 1878}}</ref>

	===Confirmatory witnesses===		==Confirmatory witnesses==

	Other members also mentioned their own spiritual experiences about the west. Wilford Woodruff recalled that		Other members also mentioned their own spiritual experiences about the west. Wilford Woodruff recalled that
Line 136:		Line 133:
	</blockquote>		</blockquote>

	===Other evidence from Joseph's lifetime===		==Other evidence from Joseph's lifetime==

	There is other evidence recorded during Joseph's lifetime that lends plausibility to the account given by Call and others.		There is other evidence recorded during Joseph's lifetime that lends plausibility to the account given by Call and others.
Line 169:		Line 166:
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}
			<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->
	[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]		[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]
	[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]		[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]

GregSmith: bot - remove old references code

2024-04-13T02:57:59Z

bot - remove old references code

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:57, 13 April 2024
Line 171:		Line 171:
	[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]		[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]
	[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]		[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]

	~~==References==~~
	~~{{Reflist}}~~

GregSmith: Change ((Navigation JS}} to {{Navigation:JS}}, replaced: {{Navigation Joseph Smith}} → {{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}

2024-04-12T19:12:11Z

Change ((Navigation JS}} to {{Navigation:JS}}, replaced: {{Navigation Joseph Smith}} → {{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}

Show changes

DavidSmith at 02:27, 27 March 2023

2023-03-27T02:27:24Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:27, 27 March 2023
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{~~FairMormon~~}}		{{Main Page}}
	~~<onlyinclude>~~		{{Navigation Joseph Smith}}


			{{Header}}

	==Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?==		==Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?==
	===To accept a "forgery" theory, we must accept that all of the people listed who remembered Joseph speaking about the Rocky Mountains were lying or fabricating their experience===		===To accept a "forgery" theory, we must accept that all of the people listed who remembered Joseph speaking about the Rocky Mountains were lying or fabricating their experience===

DavidSmith: DavidSmith moved page Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"? to [[Joseph Smith's Rocky Mountain pro...

2023-03-27T02:26:57Z

DavidSmith moved page Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"? to [[Joseph Smith's Rocky Mountain pro...

← Older revision	Revision as of 02:26, 27 March 2023
(No difference)

RogerNicholson at 01:47, 6 October 2017

2017-10-06T01:47:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:47, 6 October 2017
Line 166:		Line 166:
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}
	[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]		[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]
			[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith hizo "predicciones forjadas" y las agregó retroactivamente a la historia de la Iglesia que un "poderoso pueblo" que moraría "en medio de las Montañas Rocallosas"?]]

RogerNicholson: /* Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"? */

2017-06-28T17:50:04Z

Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:50, 28 June 2017
Line 165:		Line 165:
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}
	[[~~Category~~:~~MormonThink~~]]		[[fi:Kysymys: Tekikö Joseph Smith “vääriä ennustuksia” ja lisäsikö hän ne takautuvasti kirkon historiaan mahtavasta kansasta, joka eläisi Kalliovuorten keskellä”?]]

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-{{FME-Source\n\|title(.*)\n}} +{{FairMormon}})

2017-06-27T23:47:17Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-{{FME-Source\n\|title(.*)\n}} +{{FairMormon}})

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:47, 27 June 2017
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{~~FME-Source~~		{{FairMormon}}
	~~\|title=Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?~~
	}}
	<onlyinclude>		<onlyinclude>
	==Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?==		==Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?==

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:25, 18 February 2026
Line 2:		Line 2:
	{{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}{{blankline}}		{{Navigation:Joseph Smith}}{{blankline}}

	=Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?=		==Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?==
	==To accept a "forgery" theory, we must accept that all of the people listed who remembered Joseph speaking about the Rocky Mountains were lying or fabricating their experience==		===To accept a "forgery" theory, we must accept that all of the people listed who remembered Joseph speaking about the Rocky Mountains were lying or fabricating their experience===

	Furthermore, we must also accept that Joseph was sending explorers to the west with no real expectation of moving, and the discussion of heading west by both members and enemies was all idle talk.		Furthermore, we must also accept that Joseph was sending explorers to the west with no real expectation of moving, and the discussion of heading west by both members and enemies was all idle talk.
Line 9:		Line 9:
	Furthermore, the mention of moving to the west is often incidental—Church leaders mention the matter as if many of their hearers from Nauvoo would recall it. No great effort is made to establish the truth of the matter; it is presumed to be too obvious to require much demonstration.		Furthermore, the mention of moving to the west is often incidental—Church leaders mention the matter as if many of their hearers from Nauvoo would recall it. No great effort is made to establish the truth of the matter; it is presumed to be too obvious to require much demonstration.

	==The source of the prophecy account==		===The source of the prophecy account===

	The prophecy source is the biography of Anson Call, in August 1842. The relevant section reads as follows:		The prophecy source is the biography of Anson Call, in August 1842. The relevant section reads as follows:
Line 33:		Line 33:
	None of this, to be sure, proves that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. But, to claim that the account of him discussing and even prophesying a move to the west rests on nothing but "forgery" is to distort and ignore too many sources, from too broad a time period, over what is essentially a peripheral issue.		None of this, to be sure, proves that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. But, to claim that the account of him discussing and even prophesying a move to the west rests on nothing but "forgery" is to distort and ignore too many sources, from too broad a time period, over what is essentially a peripheral issue.

	==How have less friendly historians treated this prophecy?==		===How have less friendly historians treated this prophecy?===

	We have seen that believing historians such as B. H. Roberts or Orson F. Whitney would be likely to accept this claim. How have less friendly historians treated it?		We have seen that believing historians such as B. H. Roberts or Orson F. Whitney would be likely to accept this claim. How have less friendly historians treated it?
Line 55:		Line 55:
	Thus, Morgan thought it clear that Joseph Smith had intended to go to the Rockies with the Saints, and felt it plausible that Joseph had made a prophecy to that effect. Thus, whatever the facts, it seems unlikely that a crude "forgery" is at work.		Thus, Morgan thought it clear that Joseph Smith had intended to go to the Rockies with the Saints, and felt it plausible that Joseph had made a prophecy to that effect. Thus, whatever the facts, it seems unlikely that a crude "forgery" is at work.

	==Many other Church members later wrote about Joseph's discussion of the Rocky Mountains area==		===Many other Church members later wrote about Joseph's discussion of the Rocky Mountains area===

	Before the ''Nauvoo Expositor'' incident, Benjamin F. Johnson said,		Before the ''Nauvoo Expositor'' incident, Benjamin F. Johnson said,
Line 119:		Line 119:
	Woodruff would also copy Philo Dibble's record of Joseph's last address to the Nauvoo legion, noting that "''Broth J Jaques'' this Book is W Woodruffs private Historical Book. I wish you to take special care of it yourself until I call for it. I wish you to copy last pages in red ink & file in the office as it is the Last Address of Joseph Smith before his death [from Philo Dibble] and I think we have no Copy of it in the office. The Book itself I wish locked up." <ref>{{WWJ1\|vol=8\|start=appendix\|date=24 November 1878}}</ref>		Woodruff would also copy Philo Dibble's record of Joseph's last address to the Nauvoo legion, noting that "''Broth J Jaques'' this Book is W Woodruffs private Historical Book. I wish you to take special care of it yourself until I call for it. I wish you to copy last pages in red ink & file in the office as it is the Last Address of Joseph Smith before his death [from Philo Dibble] and I think we have no Copy of it in the office. The Book itself I wish locked up." <ref>{{WWJ1\|vol=8\|start=appendix\|date=24 November 1878}}</ref>

	==Confirmatory witnesses==		===Confirmatory witnesses===

	Other members also mentioned their own spiritual experiences about the west. Wilford Woodruff recalled that		Other members also mentioned their own spiritual experiences about the west. Wilford Woodruff recalled that
Line 133:		Line 133:
	</blockquote>		</blockquote>

	==Other evidence from Joseph's lifetime==		===Other evidence from Joseph's lifetime===

	There is other evidence recorded during Joseph's lifetime that lends plausibility to the account given by Call and others.		There is other evidence recorded during Joseph's lifetime that lends plausibility to the account given by Call and others.