Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses - Revision history

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	~~\|title=[[../\|MormonThink]]~~
	~~\|author=Anonymous~~
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	~~\|section=The Witnesses~~
	~~\|previous=[[../The Kinderhook Plates\|The Kinderhook Plates]]~~
	~~\|next=[[../Doctrine & Covenants\|Doctrine & Covenants]]~~
	~~\|notes=~~
	~~This is a review of the MormonThink web page <nowiki>http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm~~</~~nowiki~~> ~~as it existed on 4/29/2012. The text of this web page may have changed since it was reviewed.~~
	}}
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	==Quick Navigation==		==Quick Navigation==
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses#Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"\|Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"]]		*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses#Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"\|Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"]]

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.		\|claim=Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.
	\|~~information=~~This is true. The witnesses that left the Church did so because they felt that Joseph had taken the wrong path, yet they held to their testimonies of the Book of Mormon. That fact that they did makes their testimonies of the Book of Mormon even more valuable, since it would have been the perfect opportunity to expose Joseph as a fraud.		}}
			{{information\|This is true. The witnesses that left the Church did so because they felt that Joseph had taken the wrong path, yet they held to their testimonies of the Book of Mormon. That fact that they did makes their testimonies of the Book of Mormon even more valuable, since it would have been the perfect opportunity to expose Joseph as a fraud.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did the Three Witnesses consider Joseph Smith a "fallen prophet" after they left the Church?}}		{{:Question: Did the Three Witnesses consider Joseph Smith a "fallen prophet" after they left the Church?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.		\|claim=The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.
	\|~~information=~~If Joseph was running a scam, why did he dare do this? Why did he attack these men's later behavior in the strongest terms, if he knew they had the means to ruin him by exposing the fraud of the Book of Mormon? Why didn't the witnesses turn around an denounce Joseph as a liar about the angel and the Book of Mormon plates? If the witnesses stuck to their story even when alienated from and harshly criticized by Joseph, doesn't this strengthen their witness? Why does it seem like Joseph had no worries about these men denying their testimony? It seems like he knew they would feel bound to bear it, no matter what.		}}
			{{information\|If Joseph was running a scam, why did he dare do this? Why did he attack these men's later behavior in the strongest terms, if he knew they had the means to ruin him by exposing the fraud of the Book of Mormon? Why didn't the witnesses turn around an denounce Joseph as a liar about the angel and the Book of Mormon plates? If the witnesses stuck to their story even when alienated from and harshly criticized by Joseph, doesn't this strengthen their witness? Why does it seem like Joseph had no worries about these men denying their testimony? It seems like he knew they would feel bound to bear it, no matter what.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture.		\|claim=There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture.
	\|~~information=~~Yes, and these witnesses never claimed to see an angel, and some later claimed to have assisted in the fabrication of the plates.		}}
			{{information\|Yes, and these witnesses never claimed to see an angel, and some later claimed to have assisted in the fabrication of the plates.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Of what did the Strangite witnesses testify?}}		{{:Question: Of what did the Strangite witnesses testify?}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim= There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock.		\|claim= There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock.
	\|~~misinformation=~~This is a common claim among critics of the Church. What they do not say is that this was a description from William Smith, Joseph's brother, who was ''not'' one of the Three or Eight witnesses. He is simply describing what happened when Joseph brought the plates home.		}}
			{{misinformation\|This is a common claim among critics of the Church. What they do not say is that this was a description from William Smith, Joseph's brother, who was ''not'' one of the Three or Eight witnesses. He is simply describing what happened when Joseph brought the plates home.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did one of the Book of Mormon witnesses actually only handle the plates while they were covered in a "tow frock"?}}		{{:Question: Did one of the Book of Mormon witnesses actually only handle the plates while they were covered in a "tow frock"?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." So which statement was David Whitmer lying about or had been mistaken about? Either way he doesn't sound like a completely trustworthy witness.		\|claim=David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." So which statement was David Whitmer lying about or had been mistaken about? Either way he doesn't sound like a completely trustworthy witness.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Actually, FairMormon doesn't have any problem believing that God told Whitmer to leave Far West. The author misinterprets the sources, however, when he assumes that Whitmer is saying that God told him to leave the Church. Whitmer had been excommunicated well before God told him to leave.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Actually, FairMormon doesn't have any problem believing that God told Whitmer to leave Far West. The author misinterprets the sources, however, when he assumes that Whitmer is saying that God told him to leave the Church. Whitmer had been excommunicated well before God told him to leave.
	\|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', 97		\|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', 97
	}}		}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon. Seven people wrote affidavits testifying that they had read early drafts of a book by author Solomon Spalding that appeared to be an early draft of the BOM. In some ways they are more credible than the BOM witnesses as they each wrote their own account instead of merely signing a prepared statement.		\|claim=There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon. Seven people wrote affidavits testifying that they had read early drafts of a book by author Solomon Spalding that appeared to be an early draft of the BOM. In some ways they are more credible than the BOM witnesses as they each wrote their own account instead of merely signing a prepared statement.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Actually, the evidence is that Doctor Philastus Hurlbut authored these affidavits, and they were suspiciously similar in the elements they mentioned. Even ''critics'' such as Fawn Brodie rejected the Spalding claims because of this.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Actually, the evidence is that Doctor Philastus Hurlbut authored these affidavits, and they were suspiciously similar in the elements they mentioned. Even ''critics'' such as Fawn Brodie rejected the Spalding claims because of this.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Is the Spalding theory of Book of Mormon authorship credible?}}		{{:Question: Is the Spalding theory of Book of Mormon authorship credible?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates		\|claim=The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates
	\|~~misinformation=~~There are only a few reported second- or third-hand quotes in which Martin mentioned "spiritual eyes," while critics ignore the multitude of quotes in which Martin said straight out that he saw the angel and handled the plates with his hands.		}}
			{{misinformation\|There are only a few reported second- or third-hand quotes in which Martin mentioned "spiritual eyes," while critics ignore the multitude of quotes in which Martin said straight out that he saw the angel and handled the plates with his hands.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he did not see the plates with his natural eyes, but rather the "eye of faith"?}}		{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he did not see the plates with his natural eyes, but rather the "eye of faith"?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=One of the eight witnesses, John Whitmer claimed, "I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. ...they were shown to me by a supernatural power" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 307) The obvious question is, why was “a supernatural power” needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates? If he handled the plates, did he handle them while in a visionary state of mind, or in his imagination?		\|claim=One of the eight witnesses, John Whitmer claimed, "I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. ...they were shown to me by a supernatural power" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 307) The obvious question is, why was “a supernatural power” needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates? If he handled the plates, did he handle them while in a visionary state of mind, or in his imagination?
	\|~~misinformation=~~The term "supernatural" is used as a synonym for "miraculous."		}}
			{{misinformation\|The term "supernatural" is used as a synonym for "miraculous."
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did John Whitmer, one of the Eight Witnesses, actually say that he saw the plates by a "supernatural power"?}}		{{:Question: Did John Whitmer, one of the Eight Witnesses, actually say that he saw the plates by a "supernatural power"?}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature. There are many statements given by the witnesses that indicate they only saw the angel and the plates in a visionary experience. Why would people need to see real, physical plates in a vision or a real angel that was physically on the earth?		\|claim=The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature. There are many statements given by the witnesses that indicate they only saw the angel and the plates in a visionary experience. Why would people need to see real, physical plates in a vision or a real angel that was physically on the earth?
	\|~~disinformation=~~There are many statements from the witnesses indicating that they physically viewed the plates.		}}
			{{disinformation\|There are many statements from the witnesses indicating that they physically viewed the plates.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}		{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=These men lived in the early 1800s and believed in magical things like many people did during that time period such as divining rods, second sight, magic, dreams, seer stones, etc. Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context.		\|claim=These men lived in the early 1800s and believed in magical things like many people did during that time period such as divining rods, second sight, magic, dreams, seer stones, etc. Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context.
	\|~~disinformation=~~Martin Harris was absolutely skeptical. He required confirmation, which he received from Charles Anthon.		}}
			{{disinformation\|Martin Harris was absolutely skeptical. He required confirmation, which he received from Charles Anthon.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Was Martin Harris a gullible witness who would simply believe anything he was told?}}		{{:Question: Was Martin Harris a gullible witness who would simply believe anything he was told?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The "testimony of the witnesses" is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books etc. in those days to help spur sales. And of course, the BOM's producers originally intended to sell copies for $1.75 each.		\|claim=The "testimony of the witnesses" is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books etc. in those days to help spur sales. And of course, the BOM's producers originally intended to sell copies for $1.75 each.
	\|~~disinformation=~~No, they weren't similar at all. Testimonials where were commonly included in books didn't talk of seeing an angel. Additionally, if the point was simply to "spur sales" of the Book of Mormon, why did the witnesses stick to their testimonies until they died? They certainly weren't hoping to get any profits from the book by that time, right? Come to think of it, what ''was'' the financial motivation for all of the other witnesses with regard to sales of the Book of Mormon? Martin Harris was the only one invested in it.		}}
			{{disinformation\|No, they weren't similar at all. Testimonials where were commonly included in books didn't talk of seeing an angel. Additionally, if the point was simply to "spur sales" of the Book of Mormon, why did the witnesses stick to their testimonies until they died? They certainly weren't hoping to get any profits from the book by that time, right? Come to think of it, what ''was'' the financial motivation for all of the other witnesses with regard to sales of the Book of Mormon? Martin Harris was the only one invested in it.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Faithful members would likely come up with explanations to counter these claims like the 3+8 witnesses signed a single statement because they so strongly agreed with their unified experience. However, this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events. This also underscores the weaknesses in the BOM process to obtain witnesses to verify the BOM.		\|claim=Faithful members would likely come up with explanations to counter these claims like the 3+8 witnesses signed a single statement because they so strongly agreed with their unified experience. However, this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events. This also underscores the weaknesses in the BOM process to obtain witnesses to verify the BOM.
	\|~~disinformation=~~The logic being displayed by the critics here is truly naive: The ''only'' window we have to historic events is through the eyes of witnesses! A witness is "One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced." That's what they did. ''That's what witnesses do''. That's why they call them "witnesses," because they witnessed the events that they are relating as part of history. What does MormonThink that ''all'' history is based on? First person witness accounts. People witness history, and they leave behind documents: journals, government records, art, etc. If you get rid of witnesses, then there's hardly any such thing as "history" at all. It is only very recently that we have things like photographs or video—and even these are records made by witnesses at the time.		}}
			{{disinformation\|The logic being displayed by the critics here is truly naive: The ''only'' window we have to historic events is through the eyes of witnesses! A witness is "One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced." That's what they did. ''That's what witnesses do''. That's why they call them "witnesses," because they witnessed the events that they are relating as part of history. What does MormonThink that ''all'' history is based on? First person witness accounts. People witness history, and they leave behind documents: journals, government records, art, etc. If you get rid of witnesses, then there's hardly any such thing as "history" at all. It is only very recently that we have things like photographs or video—and even these are records made by witnesses at the time.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often. There are very few interviews done with the witnesses that provide any additional information or corroboration of their statements. You would think that these people, after seeing such a magnificent sight, would spend their time testifying to the world about their experience instead of largely just signing a prepared statement and avoiding interviews by the media. Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer.		\|claim=All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often. There are very few interviews done with the witnesses that provide any additional information or corroboration of their statements. You would think that these people, after seeing such a magnificent sight, would spend their time testifying to the world about their experience instead of largely just signing a prepared statement and avoiding interviews by the media. Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer.
	\|~~disinformation=~~What? You mean they didn't? There are many testimonies and statements of the witnesses—especially David Whitmer. So, are we supposed to believe that these men would simply put their lives on hold for the next 50 years or so and just continue talking about their experience endlessly? They gave all the detail that there was to be had—what more are you looking for? There are only so many ways to describe an angel and a set of plates. Who said that they avoided interviews with "the media" (a 20th-century term if there ever was one). There are well-documented interviews with some of the witnesses in "the media." (See, for example, {{Book:Cook:David Whitmer Interviews}})		}}
			{{disinformation\|What? You mean they didn't? There are many testimonies and statements of the witnesses—especially David Whitmer. So, are we supposed to believe that these men would simply put their lives on hold for the next 50 years or so and just continue talking about their experience endlessly? They gave all the detail that there was to be had—what more are you looking for? There are only so many ways to describe an angel and a set of plates. Who said that they avoided interviews with "the media" (a 20th-century term if there ever was one). There are well-documented interviews with some of the witnesses in "the media." (See, for example, {{Book:Cook:David Whitmer Interviews}})
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=And of course it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives instead of having most of them abandon it later on. It doesn't make much sense to leave the one, true Church of God if you have really received an indisputable witness that it was true. Why would these people risk being cast in Outer Darkness for all eternity for denying what they KNEW to be true unless they maybe had some doubts?		\|claim=And of course it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives instead of having most of them abandon it later on. It doesn't make much sense to leave the one, true Church of God if you have really received an indisputable witness that it was true. Why would these people risk being cast in Outer Darkness for all eternity for denying what they KNEW to be true unless they maybe had some doubts?
	\|~~disinformation=~~Actually, quite the opposite is true. Their witness is much stronger ''because'' they left the Church after disagreeing with Joseph. If the witnesses did not really see what they claimed to have seen, then why did they not expose the deception when they had their fallings out with Joseph Smith and the Church? Why didn't a single witness expose the sham?		}}
			{{disinformation\|Actually, quite the opposite is true. Their witness is much stronger ''because'' they left the Church after disagreeing with Joseph. If the witnesses did not really see what they claimed to have seen, then why did they not expose the deception when they had their fallings out with Joseph Smith and the Church? Why didn't a single witness expose the sham?

	Why not correctly state that the witnesses were ''not'' witnesses of the "one, true Church of God?" They were witnesses to the angel and the existence of the gold plates. That is all. They never denied their witness. Isn't it more persuasive to be alienated from Joseph Smith and the Church, and yet continue to insist that you'd seen the plates (and, for the three, the angel)? If the witnesses had all remained faithful for their entire lives, wouldn't MormonThink now be claiming that they had a "vested interest" in sticking to their story?		Why not correctly state that the witnesses were ''not'' witnesses of the "one, true Church of God?" They were witnesses to the angel and the existence of the gold plates. That is all. They never denied their witness. Isn't it more persuasive to be alienated from Joseph Smith and the Church, and yet continue to insist that you'd seen the plates (and, for the three, the angel)? If the witnesses had all remained faithful for their entire lives, wouldn't MormonThink now be claiming that they had a "vested interest" in sticking to their story?

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	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses#Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"\|Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"]]		*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses#Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"\|Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"]]

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