Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord - Revision history

GregSmith: /* top */Bot replace {{FairMormon}} with {{Main Page}} and remove extra lines around {{Header}}

2024-04-13T20:20:30Z

top: Bot replace {{FairMormon}} with {{Main Page}} and remove extra lines around {{Header}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:20, 13 April 2024
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{~~FairMormon~~}}		{{Main Page}}
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord		\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord

RogerNicholson at 14:43, 13 September 2017

2017-09-13T14:43:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:43, 13 September 2017
Line 44:		Line 44:
	\|claim=The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith, fashioned in 1838, nearly 20 years after the event, was unknown to church members until published in 1842. It evolved after years of creative editing.		\|claim=The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith, fashioned in 1838, nearly 20 years after the event, was unknown to church members until published in 1842. It evolved after years of creative editing.
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|~~The~~ was no "creative editing." The different accounts of the vision are actually very consistent, with some accounts containing additional interesting details.		{{propaganda\|There was no "creative editing." The different accounts of the vision are actually very consistent, with some accounts containing additional interesting details.
	}}		}}
	{{:Source:Hinckley:Ensign:October 1984:I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision}}		{{:Source:Hinckley:Ensign:October 1984:I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision}}

RogerNicholson at 18:37, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T18:37:02Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:37, 4 August 2017
Line 8:		Line 8:
	\|>=[[../Doctrine & Covenants\|Doctrine & Covenants]]		\|>=[[../Doctrine & Covenants\|Doctrine & Covenants]]
	}}		}}
	~~{{ChartMormonThinkLyingForTheLord}}~~		[[File:Mormonthink.chart.lying.for.the.lord.png\|center\|frame]]
	<onlyinclude>		<onlyinclude>
	{{H2		{{H2

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|information= +}}\n{{information|)

2017-08-04T15:50:01Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|information= +}}\n{{information|)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:50, 4 August 2017
Line 59:		Line 59:
	\|claim=Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom		\|claim=Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom
	\|source="Lying for the Lord," MormonThink.com		\|source="Lying for the Lord," MormonThink.com
	\|~~information=~~Different artists have portray Moroni's visit in a variety of ways. Even ''South Park'' portrays Joseph alone in his bedroom during Moroni' visit.		}}
			{{information\|Different artists have portray Moroni's visit in a variety of ways. Even ''South Park'' portrays Joseph alone in his bedroom during Moroni' visit.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Why does Church artwork portray Joseph as being alone during Moroni's visit?}}		{{:Question: Why does Church artwork portray Joseph as being alone during Moroni's visit?}}
Line 157:		Line 158:
	\|claim="Apostle Boyd Packer declared, 'There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.'		\|claim="Apostle Boyd Packer declared, 'There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.'
	'Some things that are true are not very useful.'"		'Some things that are true are not very useful.'"
	\|~~information=~~Elder Packer was not speaking to Mormon historians, he was speaking to members of the Church Educational System (CES)		}}
			{{information\|Elder Packer was not speaking to Mormon historians, he was speaking to members of the Church Educational System (CES)
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Why did Elder Boyd K. Packer state that "Some things that are true are not very useful"?}}		{{:Question: Why did Elder Boyd K. Packer state that "Some things that are true are not very useful"?}}
Line 236:		Line 238:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=It is claimed that Joseph lied when he stated the "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing."		\|claim=It is claimed that Joseph lied when he stated the "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing."
	\|~~information=~~Joseph distinguished "spiritual wifery," a term used by John C. Bennett to justify adulter, from the doctrine of plural marriage.		}}
			{{information\|Joseph distinguished "spiritual wifery," a term used by John C. Bennett to justify adulter, from the doctrine of plural marriage.
	}}		}}

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|misinformation= +}}\n{{misinformation|)

2017-08-04T15:41:24Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|misinformation= +}}\n{{misinformation|)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:41, 4 August 2017
Line 92:		Line 92:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi		\|claim=In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi
	\|~~misinformation=~~This was a scribal error that was propagated into a number of other sources.		}}
			{{misinformation\|This was a scribal error that was propagated into a number of other sources.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith originally identify the angel that visited him as "Nephi" instead of "Moroni"?}}		{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith originally identify the angel that visited him as "Nephi" instead of "Moroni"?}}
Line 105:		Line 106:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco to create a more favorable impression of their prophet, who if living today (2007) would be unable to pass a worthiness interview and earn a temple recommend in the church he founded.		\|claim=Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco to create a more favorable impression of their prophet, who if living today (2007) would be unable to pass a worthiness interview and earn a temple recommend in the church he founded.
	\|~~misinformation=~~The author does not understand how the Word of Wisdom was initially regarded by Joseph Smith and other Latter-day Saints. It was much less strict at the time.		}}
			{{misinformation\|The author does not understand how the Word of Wisdom was initially regarded by Joseph Smith and other Latter-day Saints. It was much less strict at the time.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: In what way did Joseph Smith implement the Word of Wisdom during his lifetime?}}		{{:Question: In what way did Joseph Smith implement the Word of Wisdom during his lifetime?}}
Line 124:		Line 126:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim= Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed truth directly to him....He made arrangements to publish a collection of revealed truths in the Book of Commandments....Two years later he published another version with original revelations revised and more revelations added and called it the Doctrine and Covenants.		\|claim= Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed truth directly to him....He made arrangements to publish a collection of revealed truths in the Book of Commandments....Two years later he published another version with original revelations revised and more revelations added and called it the Doctrine and Covenants.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Revelation is added "line upon line." There was no problem with Joseph revising or adding to revelations as the needs of the Church changed. Nobody in the Church at that time saw any problem with it either.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Revelation is added "line upon line." There was no problem with Joseph revising or adding to revelations as the needs of the Church changed. Nobody in the Church at that time saw any problem with it either.
	}}		}}
	{{:Source:Brigham Young:JD 1:314:I do not even believe that there is a single revelation, among the many God has given to the Church, that is perfect in its fulness}}		{{:Source:Brigham Young:JD 1:314:I do not even believe that there is a single revelation, among the many God has given to the Church, that is perfect in its fulness}}
Line 189:		Line 192:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating".		\|claim=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating".
	\|~~misinformation=~~It is important to remember that what we ''do'' know for certain is that the translation of the Book of Mormon was carried out "by the gift and power of God." These are the only words that Joseph Smith himself used to describe the translation process. We do not know the exact method of translation, other than Joseph employed instruments designated for that purpose: The Nephite interpreters and his own seer stone. Many have offered their own opinions about how these devices "functioned" in the process, but it should be kept in mind that these opinions are given by people who never performed the translation process itself: They can only report on what they observed the Prophet doing at the time.		}}
			{{misinformation\|It is important to remember that what we ''do'' know for certain is that the translation of the Book of Mormon was carried out "by the gift and power of God." These are the only words that Joseph Smith himself used to describe the translation process. We do not know the exact method of translation, other than Joseph employed instruments designated for that purpose: The Nephite interpreters and his own seer stone. Many have offered their own opinions about how these devices "functioned" in the process, but it should be kept in mind that these opinions are given by people who never performed the translation process itself: They can only report on what they observed the Prophet doing at the time.
	\|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', pp. 84-85.		\|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', pp. 84-85.
	}}		}}
Line 198:		Line 202:
	\|claim=nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim.		\|claim=nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim.
	\|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', pp. 84-85.		\|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', pp. 84-85.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Historical sources also indicate that at some later point in time, both the Nephite interpreters and Joseph's seer stone were referred to using the term "Urim and Thummim." Whether Joseph used the "original" Urim and Thummim (i.e. Nephite interpreters or "spectacles") or his own seer stone to perform this sacred task is beside the point, and it does not diminish the power of the resulting work. However, at no time did anyone indicate that any of these instruments were the "Old Testament instrument" referred to by the same name.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Historical sources also indicate that at some later point in time, both the Nephite interpreters and Joseph's seer stone were referred to using the term "Urim and Thummim." Whether Joseph used the "original" Urim and Thummim (i.e. Nephite interpreters or "spectacles") or his own seer stone to perform this sacred task is beside the point, and it does not diminish the power of the resulting work. However, at no time did anyone indicate that any of these instruments were the "Old Testament instrument" referred to by the same name.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: How exactly did Joseph Smith translate the gold plates?}}		{{:Question: How exactly did Joseph Smith translate the gold plates?}}
Line 220:		Line 225:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement and then did an about-face, adopting polygamy as God's recommended mode of marriage (D&C 42:22-24 and 132)		\|claim=The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement and then did an about-face, adopting polygamy as God's recommended mode of marriage (D&C 42:22-24 and 132)
	\|~~misinformation=~~The statement itself was not changed between the 1835 and 1844 editions of the D&C. In fact, the statement remained in the D&C until the 1876 edition, even though plural marriage had been taught since at least 1831, practiced in secret since 1836, and practiced openly since 1852. The matter of not removing it in 1852 was simply due to the fact that a new edition of the D&C was not published until 1876.		}}
			{{misinformation\|The statement itself was not changed between the 1835 and 1844 editions of the D&C. In fact, the statement remained in the D&C until the 1876 edition, even though plural marriage had been taught since at least 1831, practiced in secret since 1836, and practiced openly since 1852. The matter of not removing it in 1852 was simply due to the fact that a new edition of the D&C was not published until 1876.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Why did the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants include a statement of marriage that denied the practice of polygamy at a time when some were actually practicing it?}}		{{:Question: Why did the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants include a statement of marriage that denied the practice of polygamy at a time when some were actually practicing it?}}
Line 237:		Line 243:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim= Contrary to the traditional LDS claim that the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife, Emma Smith was unaware of nearly all of Joseph's "marriages" to other women.		\|claim= Contrary to the traditional LDS claim that the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife, Emma Smith was unaware of nearly all of Joseph's "marriages" to other women.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Emma was aware of plural marriage; it is not clear at exactly what point she was made aware, partly due to there being relatively few early sources on the matter. Emma was generally opposed to the practice of plural marriage, and did much to try and thwart it. There were times, however, when Emma gave permission for Joseph's plural marriages, though she soon changed her mind. Emma was troubled by plural marriage, but her difficulties arose partly from her conviction that Joseph was a prophet.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Emma was aware of plural marriage; it is not clear at exactly what point she was made aware, partly due to there being relatively few early sources on the matter. Emma was generally opposed to the practice of plural marriage, and did much to try and thwart it. There were times, however, when Emma gave permission for Joseph's plural marriages, though she soon changed her mind. Emma was troubled by plural marriage, but her difficulties arose partly from her conviction that Joseph was a prophet.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Was Emma aware of the possibility that Joseph could take additional wives even without her consent?}}		{{:Question: Was Emma aware of the possibility that Joseph could take additional wives even without her consent?}}
Line 246:		Line 253:
	\|claim=		\|claim=
	Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney in August 1842 without Emma's knowledge or consent. He had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma. He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, "The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety... Burn this letter as soon as you read it."		Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney in August 1842 without Emma's knowledge or consent. He had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma. He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, "The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety... Burn this letter as soon as you read it."
	\|~~misinformation=~~The critics are misinterpreting the intent of Joseph's letter, and they have no way of knowing that Joseph "had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma."		}}
			{{misinformation\|The critics are misinterpreting the intent of Joseph's letter, and they have no way of knowing that Joseph "had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma."
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith write a "love letter" to his plural wife Sarah Ann Whitney to request a secret rendezvous?}}		{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith write a "love letter" to his plural wife Sarah Ann Whitney to request a secret rendezvous?}}

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|disinformation= +}}\n{{disinformation|)

2017-08-04T15:37:12Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|disinformation= +}}\n{{disinformation|)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:37, 4 August 2017
Line 83:		Line 83:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy (the prediction that Salt Lake would be the place the saints would settle after leaving Nauvoo, Illinois) was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith.		\|claim=The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy (the prediction that Salt Lake would be the place the saints would settle after leaving Nauvoo, Illinois) was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith.
	\|~~disinformation=~~This is incorrect.		}}
			{{disinformation\|This is incorrect.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?}}		{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?}}
Line 137:		Line 138:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man. Documents discovered in 1971 by Dr. Wesley Walters in Norwich, New York, verify that Joseph Smith was a "glass looker" and that he was arrested, tried and found guilty by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, New York, in 1826 for this criminal activity.		\|claim=Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man. Documents discovered in 1971 by Dr. Wesley Walters in Norwich, New York, verify that Joseph Smith was a "glass looker" and that he was arrested, tried and found guilty by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, New York, in 1826 for this criminal activity.
	\|~~disinformation=~~Joseph was not a "con man" - this is wishful thinking on the part of the critics. The South Bainbridge hearing was not a trial, and there was no verdict issued. Joseph was simply released. He wasn't even fined. The judge issued a bill for court costs only. The Bainbridge "trial" is even mentioned in the official Church magazine, the ''Ensign''. The critics get everything wrong in this claim.		}}
			{{disinformation\|Joseph was not a "con man" - this is wishful thinking on the part of the critics. The South Bainbridge hearing was not a trial, and there was no verdict issued. Joseph was simply released. He wasn't even fined. The judge issued a bill for court costs only. The Bainbridge "trial" is even mentioned in the official Church magazine, the ''Ensign''. The critics get everything wrong in this claim.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: What is Joseph Smith's 1826 Bainbridge "trial" for "glasslooking"?}}		{{:Question: What is Joseph Smith's 1826 Bainbridge "trial" for "glasslooking"?}}
Line 267:		Line 269:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment, to say it most kindly, in choosing his friends and other church leaders		\|claim=Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment, to say it most kindly, in choosing his friends and other church leaders
	\|~~disinformation=~~Church histories are full of examples of Joseph Smith exercising poor judgment and the consequences that resulted from it. Some examples include:		}}
			{{disinformation\|Church histories are full of examples of Joseph Smith exercising poor judgment and the consequences that resulted from it. Some examples include:
	*The Kirtland Safety Society—Consequence: apostasy of many Church leaders, including two of the three witnesses.		*The Kirtland Safety Society—Consequence: apostasy of many Church leaders, including two of the three witnesses.
	*The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press—Consequence: the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.		*The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press—Consequence: the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|propaganda= +}}\n{{propaganda|)

2017-08-04T15:32:13Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|propaganda= +}}\n{{propaganda|)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:32, 4 August 2017
Line 43:		Line 43:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith, fashioned in 1838, nearly 20 years after the event, was unknown to church members until published in 1842. It evolved after years of creative editing.		\|claim=The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith, fashioned in 1838, nearly 20 years after the event, was unknown to church members until published in 1842. It evolved after years of creative editing.
	\|~~propaganda=~~The was no "creative editing." The different accounts of the vision are actually very consistent, with some accounts containing additional interesting details.		}}
			{{propaganda\|The was no "creative editing." The different accounts of the vision are actually very consistent, with some accounts containing additional interesting details.
	}}		}}
	{{:Source:Hinckley:Ensign:October 1984:I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision}}		{{:Source:Hinckley:Ensign:October 1984:I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision}}
Line 71:		Line 72:
	\|claim=The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith		\|claim=The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith
	\|source="Lying for the Lord," MormonThink.com		\|source="Lying for the Lord," MormonThink.com
	\|~~propaganda=~~Much of the ''History of the Church'' was written after Joseph's death in the first person, as if Joseph had written it. This was the accepted historical style of the time - there was no nefarious intent behind it.		}}
			{{propaganda\|Much of the ''History of the Church'' was written after Joseph's death in the first person, as if Joseph had written it. This was the accepted historical style of the time - there was no nefarious intent behind it.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Why is ''History of the Church'' written in first-person, as if Joseph Smith himself wrote it?}}		{{:Question: Why is ''History of the Church'' written in first-person, as if Joseph Smith himself wrote it?}}
Line 111:		Line 113:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Current LDS apostles are refreshingly honest about ordering church members to be dishonest. They have ordered those who [are] employed by the church to suppress the truth about Mormon history. Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon.		\|claim=Current LDS apostles are refreshingly honest about ordering church members to be dishonest. They have ordered those who [are] employed by the church to suppress the truth about Mormon history. Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is nonsense.		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is nonsense.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Has the Church "whitewashed" some of the information about its origins to appear more palatable to members and investigators?}}		{{:Question: Has the Church "whitewashed" some of the information about its origins to appear more palatable to members and investigators?}}
Line 157:		Line 160:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Official Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses respectively, who claim to have seen Smith's gold plates and handled them. The faith promoting histories do not inform investigators or members that their experience was one that took place in their imaginations or as they called it, "spiritual eyes," "eyes of our understanding," "a supernatural vision," or "visions of the mind."		\|claim=Official Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses respectively, who claim to have seen Smith's gold plates and handled them. The faith promoting histories do not inform investigators or members that their experience was one that took place in their imaginations or as they called it, "spiritual eyes," "eyes of our understanding," "a supernatural vision," or "visions of the mind."
	\|~~propaganda=~~Actually, critics of the Church are not forthcoming about the many clear statements made by the three and eight witnesses that indicate that they saw and handled the plates. Instead, they focus on a few second- and third-hand account in which scriptural language such as "spiritual eyes" was used in order to discredit the witnesses.		}}
			{{propaganda\|Actually, critics of the Church are not forthcoming about the many clear statements made by the three and eight witnesses that indicate that they saw and handled the plates. Instead, they focus on a few second- and third-hand account in which scriptural language such as "spiritual eyes" was used in order to discredit the witnesses.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}		{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}
Line 175:		Line 179:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe. The plates were imagined in two groups of four, not all 8 together as popularized in church paintings. (Deseret Evening News, 6 Aug. 1878, Letter to the editor from P. Wilhelm Poulson, M.D., typed transcript, p. 2) Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery imagined the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not imagine seeing the angel until some three days later. (Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Chapter 6. Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, pp. 70-71)		\|claim=The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe. The plates were imagined in two groups of four, not all 8 together as popularized in church paintings. (Deseret Evening News, 6 Aug. 1878, Letter to the editor from P. Wilhelm Poulson, M.D., typed transcript, p. 2) Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery imagined the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not imagine seeing the angel until some three days later. (Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Chapter 6. Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, pp. 70-71)
	\|~~propaganda=~~The spin is strong with this one, as the author flatly states that everyone "imagined" seeing the plates at different times either alone, in groups of two or groups of four. Seriously?		}}
			{{propaganda\|The spin is strong with this one, as the author flatly states that everyone "imagined" seeing the plates at different times either alone, in groups of two or groups of four. Seriously?
	}}		}}

Line 204:		Line 209:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger		\|claim=One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger
	\|~~propaganda=~~The Fanny Alger marriage illustrates many of the difficulties which the historian encounters in polygamy. There is little information available, much of it is second hand, and virtually all of it was recorded "after the fact." Even the dates are unclear, and subject to debate. It seems clear, however, that Joseph, Fanny's family, Levi Hancock, and even hostile witnesses saw their relationship as a marriage, albeit an unorthodox one. The witness of Chauncey Webb and Ann Eliza Webb Young make it untenable to claim that only a later Mormon whitewash turned an affair into a marriage.		}}
			{{propaganda\|The Fanny Alger marriage illustrates many of the difficulties which the historian encounters in polygamy. There is little information available, much of it is second hand, and virtually all of it was recorded "after the fact." Even the dates are unclear, and subject to debate. It seems clear, however, that Joseph, Fanny's family, Levi Hancock, and even hostile witnesses saw their relationship as a marriage, albeit an unorthodox one. The witness of Chauncey Webb and Ann Eliza Webb Young make it untenable to claim that only a later Mormon whitewash turned an affair into a marriage.
	\|provenance=Richard Van Wagoner, ''Mormon Polygamy: A History'', 2nd edition, Signature Books, 1989, pp. 4-11		\|provenance=Richard Van Wagoner, ''Mormon Polygamy: A History'', 2nd edition, Signature Books, 1989, pp. 4-11
	}}		}}
Line 248:		Line 254:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Joseph's polygamous activities were unknown to the vast majority of the saints in Nauvoo because of his public and private prevarications. He publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage, showing the ability to consciously mislead his devoted followers without remorse.		\|claim=Joseph's polygamous activities were unknown to the vast majority of the saints in Nauvoo because of his public and private prevarications. He publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage, showing the ability to consciously mislead his devoted followers without remorse.
	\|~~propaganda=~~The secrecy of the practice wasn't because Joseph didn't ''try'' to teach the doctrine. It was because of the danger from others.		}}
			{{propaganda\|The secrecy of the practice wasn't because Joseph didn't ''try'' to teach the doctrine. It was because of the danger from others.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith ever publicly attempt to teach the doctrine of plural marriage?}}		{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith ever publicly attempt to teach the doctrine of plural marriage?}}
Line 269:		Line 276:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members into believing that the LDS church intended to comply with the mandate of the government to abandon polygamy.		\|claim=The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members into believing that the LDS church intended to comply with the mandate of the government to abandon polygamy.
	\|~~propaganda=~~The authors at MormonThink simply assume dishonest motives behind everything Church leaders did.		}}
			{{propaganda\|The authors at MormonThink simply assume dishonest motives behind everything Church leaders did.
	}}		}}
	{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:The Second Manifesto}}		{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:The Second Manifesto}}

RogerNicholson at 13:39, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T13:39:35Z

@@ Line 14: / Line 14: @@
 |H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
 |S=
-|L1=
+|L1=Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"
 }}
 </onlyinclude>
-==Quick Navigation==
 ==Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"==
 {{IndexClaimItemShort

RogerNicholson at 13:38, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T13:38:00Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:38, 4 August 2017
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	~~<onlyinclude>~~
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L=~~{{check}}~~		\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
	\|H=Response to MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"		\|H=Response to MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
	~~\|S=~~
	~~\|L1=~~
	\|T=[[../\|MormonThink]]		\|T=[[../\|MormonThink]]
	\|A=Anonymous		\|A=Anonymous
Line 12:		Line 9:
	}}		}}
	{{ChartMormonThinkLyingForTheLord}}		{{ChartMormonThinkLyingForTheLord}}
			<onlyinclude>
			{{H2
			\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
			\|H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
			\|S=
			\|L1=
			}}
			</onlyinclude>
	==Quick Navigation==		==Quick Navigation==
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord#Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"\|Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"]]		*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord#Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"\|Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"]]

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|H1 +|H)

2017-06-26T21:36:44Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|H1 +|H)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:36, 26 June 2017
Line 3:		Line 3:
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L={{check}}		\|L={{check}}
	\|H1=Response to MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"		\|H=Response to MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
	\|S=		\|S=
	\|L1=		\|L1=