Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Robert Ritner - Revision history

SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about the Translation Process */

2022-02-03T20:12:16Z

Claims about the Translation Process

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	\|claim=101:59-102:25 Part of the Book of Abraham was sort of translated in 1835, up through Abraham chapter 2 verse 18, and the balance was translated in early 1842 in Nauvoo and then it was printed in the church newspaper starting I think in March of 1842.		\|claim=101:59-102:25 Part of the Book of Abraham was sort of translated in 1835, up through Abraham chapter 2 verse 18, and the balance was translated in early 1842 in Nauvoo and then it was printed in the church newspaper starting I think in March of 1842.
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	{{propaganda\|There is no consensus on the timing of the translation of the Book of Abraham as of this moment. For some different views of the timing of translation, see the citation.<ref>For differing views on translation chronology see Kerry Muhelstein and Megan Hansen ~~“The~~ Work of Translating: The Book of Abraham’s Translation Chronology," ''Let Us Reason Together: Essays in Honor of the Life’s Work of Robert L. Millet'', J. Spencer Fluhman and Brent L. Top~~, eds.~~ (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center; Salt Lake City: 2016), 139–62; John Gee, ''An Introduction to the Book of Abraham'' (Deseret Book: Salt Lake City, UT, 2018), 15–16; Robin Scott Jensen and Brian M. Hauglid, ''The Joseph Smith Papers Revelations and Translations Volume 4: Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts'' (Church Historian's Press~~: Salt Lake City, UT~~, 2018), ~~Introduction~~. The reason for the discrepancy is disagreement over validity of W.W. Phelps' letter of July 1835 indicating that they had begun translation, textual evidence that shows by October 1835 the translated Egyptian term "Shinehah" was found in Abraham 3:13, and the presence of Hebrew terminology in early manuscripts of the Book of Abraham which suggests that some revision was done to Abraham 3 based on revelatory insights to Joseph.</ref>		{{propaganda\|There is no consensus on the timing of the translation of the Book of Abraham as of this moment. For some different views of the timing of translation, see the citation.<ref>For differing views on translation chronology see Kerry Muhelstein and Megan Hansen “[https://rsc-legacy.byu.edu/archived/let-us-reason-together/work-translating-book-abraham-s-translation-chronology The Work of Translating: The Book of Abraham’s Translation Chronology]," in ''Let Us Reason Together: Essays in Honor of the Life’s Work of Robert L. Millet'', eds. J. Spencer Fluhman and Brent L. Top (Provo, UT: BYU Religious Studies Center; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 2016), 139–62; John Gee, ''An Introduction to the Book of Abraham'' (Deseret Book: Salt Lake City, UT, 2018), 15–16; Robin Scott Jensen and Brian M. Hauglid, ''The Joseph Smith Papers, Revelations and Translations Volume 4: Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts'' (Salt Lake City: Church Historian's Press, 2018), xiii–xxix. The reason for the discrepancy is disagreement over validity of W.W. Phelps' letter of July 1835 indicating that they had begun translation, textual evidence that shows by October 1835 the translated Egyptian term "Shinehah" was found in Abraham 3:13, and the presence of Hebrew terminology in early manuscripts of the Book of Abraham which suggests that some revision was done to Abraham 3 based on revelatory insights to Joseph.</ref>
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SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers */

2022-02-03T20:08:36Z

Claims about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers

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			<embedvideo service="youtube">v=nWz-E-ZJcxI&t</embedvideo>

	<embedvideo service="youtube">v=~~nWz-E-ZJcxI~~</embedvideo>		<embedvideo service="youtube">v=r6abS_qRBTc</embedvideo>

	=Claims about Chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham=		=Claims about Chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham=

TrevorHolyoak: /* Claims about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers */

2022-01-14T00:20:07Z

Claims about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:20, 14 January 2022
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	<embedvideo service="youtube">v=~~EvbUAF8zQ5Q&t~~</embedvideo>		<embedvideo service="youtube">v=nWz-E-ZJcxI</embedvideo>


	=Claims about Chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham=		=Claims about Chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham=

SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about the Translation Process */

2021-08-19T01:02:06Z

Claims about the Translation Process

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:02, 19 August 2021
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	\|claim=101:59-102:25 Part of the Book of Abraham was sort of translated in 1835, up through Abraham chapter 2 verse 18, and the balance was translated in early 1842 in Nauvoo and then it was printed in the church newspaper starting I think in March of 1842.		\|claim=101:59-102:25 Part of the Book of Abraham was sort of translated in 1835, up through Abraham chapter 2 verse 18, and the balance was translated in early 1842 in Nauvoo and then it was printed in the church newspaper starting I think in March of 1842.
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|There is no consensus on the timing of the translation of the Book of Abraham as of this moment. For some different views of the timing of translation, see the citation.<ref>As John Gee documents in ''An Introduction to the Book of Abraham'', Joseph Smith visited Church members in Michigan in August of 1835. While he was gone, W.W. Phelps published the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants using the term "Shinehah." taken from Abraham 3:13, as a code word for Kirtland, Ohio, in sections 86 and 98 (sections 82 and 104 in the current edition). This indicates that the Book of Abraham had at least reached Abraham 3:13 before Joseph Smith left for Michigan. P. 16 of the book contains the reference. Additionally, the Book of Jasher as listed in this collection of lore was first published in New York 1840. The appearance of the English translation was noted by the church's Times and Seasons 1 (June 1840): 127 (see also 2 [15 May 1841]: 421), which also published extracts. Ibid., 5 (15 Dec. 1844): 745-46. It was duly noted, however, that the biblical Book of Jasher had not yet been found; ibid., 6 (14 Feb. 1845):800. For differing views on translation chronology see Kerry Muhelstein and Megan Hansen “The Work of Translating: The Book of Abraham’s Translation Chronology," ''Let Us Reason Together: Essays in Honor of the Life’s Work of Robert L. Millet'', J. Spencer Fluhman and Brent L. Top, eds. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center; Salt Lake City: 2016), 139–62; John Gee, ''An Introduction to the Book of Abraham'' (Deseret Book: Salt Lake City, UT, 2018), 15–16; Robin Scott Jensen and Brian M. Hauglid, ''The Joseph Smith Papers Revelations and Translations Volume 4: Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts'' (Church Historian's Press: Salt Lake City, UT, 2018), Introduction. The reason for the discrepancy is disagreement over validity of W.W. Phelps' letter of July 1835 indicating that they had begun translation, textual evidence that shows by October 1835 the translated Egyptian term "Shinehah" was found in Abraham 3:13, and the presence of Hebrew terminology in early manuscripts of the Book of Abraham which suggests that some revision was done to Abraham 3 based on revelatory insights to Joseph.</ref>		{{propaganda\|There is no consensus on the timing of the translation of the Book of Abraham as of this moment. For some different views of the timing of translation, see the citation.<ref>For differing views on translation chronology see Kerry Muhelstein and Megan Hansen “The Work of Translating: The Book of Abraham’s Translation Chronology," ''Let Us Reason Together: Essays in Honor of the Life’s Work of Robert L. Millet'', J. Spencer Fluhman and Brent L. Top, eds. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center; Salt Lake City: 2016), 139–62; John Gee, ''An Introduction to the Book of Abraham'' (Deseret Book: Salt Lake City, UT, 2018), 15–16; Robin Scott Jensen and Brian M. Hauglid, ''The Joseph Smith Papers Revelations and Translations Volume 4: Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts'' (Church Historian's Press: Salt Lake City, UT, 2018), Introduction. The reason for the discrepancy is disagreement over validity of W.W. Phelps' letter of July 1835 indicating that they had begun translation, textual evidence that shows by October 1835 the translated Egyptian term "Shinehah" was found in Abraham 3:13, and the presence of Hebrew terminology in early manuscripts of the Book of Abraham which suggests that some revision was done to Abraham 3 based on revelatory insights to Joseph.</ref>
	}}		}}

SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about Chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham */

2021-08-18T20:31:10Z

Claims about Chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham

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	\|claim=Ep. 1: 86:11-86:19 Egyptians did not perform human sacrifices.		\|claim=Ep. 1: 86:11-86:19 Egyptians did not perform human sacrifices.
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	{{disinformation\|Egyptians ~~most certainly~~ did perform human sacrifice.}}		{{disinformation\|It is surprising that Ritner would say this since Ritner was the Egyptologist that established that Egyptians did perform human sacrifices. He devotes an entire section to "human sacrifice," concluding that the Mergissa deposit "provides the first indisputable evidence for the practice of human sacrifice in classical ancient Egypt."<ref>Robert K. Ritner, ''The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice'' (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1993), 162-180.</ref>}}
	{{:Muhlestein and Gee: "It is now apparent that human sacrifice did indeed occur in ancient Egypt"}}		{{:Muhlestein and Gee: "It is now apparent that human sacrifice did indeed occur in ancient Egypt"}}

SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about the Book of Abraham Generally */

2021-08-18T20:29:21Z

Claims about the Book of Abraham Generally

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:29, 18 August 2021
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	\|claim=Ep. 1: 92:16-92:25 - These fragments date between the third century BCE and the first century BCE long after Abraham lived.		\|claim=Ep. 1: 92:16-92:25 - These fragments date between the third century BCE and the first century BCE long after Abraham lived.
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	{{information\|The surviving fragments of the papyri in Joseph Smith's possession and from which he may have translated the Book of Abraham date to anywhere between the third century BCE and the first century AD. But this ~~does~~ not ~~have to deter us from believing~~ that ~~Abraham could have played a role in the~~ authorship of the ~~Book of Abraham~~.		{{information\|The surviving fragments of the papyri in Joseph Smith's possession and from which he may have translated the Book of Abraham date to anywhere between the third century BCE and the first century AD. But this is irrelevant, since what is important is who authored the text, not when this particular copy of that text was created. Abraham’s authorship of the text is not called into question by the fact that the text was copied by a scribe many years later.
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	{{:Question: Since the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was translated date to the 3rd century BCE to the 1st century CE, does this mean that the events recorded in the Book of Abraham cannot be historical?}}		{{:Question: Since the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was translated date to the 3rd century BCE to the 1st century CE, does this mean that the events recorded in the Book of Abraham cannot be historical?}}

SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about the Book of Abraham Generally */

2021-08-11T19:01:44Z

Claims about the Book of Abraham Generally

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:01, 11 August 2021
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	{{misinformation\|It is surprising that Professor Ritner would make this argument since the beginning textbook he taught out of for years says that "by the hand of" means "with, from, by, through" and he himself used to teach that it was not always to be taken literally.<ref>Janet H. Johnson, ''Thus Wrote Onchsheshonqy: An Introductory Grammar of Demotic'', 2nd ed. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1991), 31, 107.</ref> The dictionary that he helped edit says that it can mean "by, from the hand of, to, in(to) the hand of, in the possession of; in, near, with, from, by, to, for; in the hand, control of; in the possession of; into the presence of, beside; because of, concerning; through, because of; from, with regard to; by." (CDD D, 63-64). In titles of Egyptian texts, this phrase always indicates the author.<ref>John Gee, "Literary Titles from the Greco-Roman Period," in ''En detail: Philologie und Archäologie im Diskurs'' (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2019), 1:344-45 and examples [42], [43], [72], [73], [75], [76], [77], [78].</ref>		{{misinformation\|It is surprising that Professor Ritner would make this argument since the beginning textbook he taught out of for years says that "by the hand of" means "with, from, by, through" and he himself used to teach that it was not always to be taken literally.<ref>Janet H. Johnson, ''Thus Wrote Onchsheshonqy: An Introductory Grammar of Demotic'', 2nd ed. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1991), 31, 107.</ref> The dictionary that he helped edit says that it can mean "by, from the hand of, to, in(to) the hand of, in the possession of; in, near, with, from, by, to, for; in the hand, control of; in the possession of; into the presence of, beside; because of, concerning; through, because of; from, with regard to; by." (CDD D, 63-64). In titles of Egyptian texts, this phrase always indicates the author.<ref>John Gee, "Literary Titles from the Greco-Roman Period," in ''En detail: Philologie und Archäologie im Diskurs'' (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2019), 1:344-45 and examples [42], [43], [72], [73], [75], [76], [77], [78].</ref>
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	~~{{:Book of Abraham/By his own hand}}~~

	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort

SpencerMarsh: /* Claims about the Book of Abraham Generally */

2021-08-11T19:01:30Z

Claims about the Book of Abraham Generally

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	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Mormon Stories #1339: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham Pt 1		\|title=Mormon Stories #1339: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham Pt 1
	\|claim=Ep. 1: 75:19-84:51 - When considering when Abraham would have lived, if he existed at all, it would have been long before the time when the Joseph Smith Papyri were created, so 1) could have ~~not~~ been “written by his own hand.”		\|claim=Ep. 1: 75:19-84:51 - When considering when Abraham would have lived, if he existed at all, it would have been long before the time when the Joseph Smith Papyri were created, so 1) could not have been “written by his own hand.”
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|It is surprising that Professor Ritner would make this argument since the beginning textbook he taught out of for years says that "by the hand of" means "with, from, by, through" and he himself used to teach that it was not always to be taken literally.<ref>Janet H. Johnson, ''Thus Wrote Onchsheshonqy: An Introductory Grammar of Demotic'', 2nd ed. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1991), 31, 107.</ref> The dictionary that he helped edit says that it can mean "by, from the hand of, to, in(to) the hand of, in the possession of; in, near, with, from, by, to, for; in the hand, control of; in the possession of; into the presence of, beside; because of, concerning; through, because of; from, with regard to; by." (CDD D, 63-64). In titles of Egyptian texts, this phrase always indicates the author.<ref>John Gee, "Literary Titles from the Greco-Roman Period," in ''En detail: Philologie und Archäologie im Diskurs'' (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2019), 1:344-45 and examples [42], [43], [72], [73], [75], [76], [77], [78].</ref>		{{misinformation\|It is surprising that Professor Ritner would make this argument since the beginning textbook he taught out of for years says that "by the hand of" means "with, from, by, through" and he himself used to teach that it was not always to be taken literally.<ref>Janet H. Johnson, ''Thus Wrote Onchsheshonqy: An Introductory Grammar of Demotic'', 2nd ed. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1991), 31, 107.</ref> The dictionary that he helped edit says that it can mean "by, from the hand of, to, in(to) the hand of, in the possession of; in, near, with, from, by, to, for; in the hand, control of; in the possession of; into the presence of, beside; because of, concerning; through, because of; from, with regard to; by." (CDD D, 63-64). In titles of Egyptian texts, this phrase always indicates the author.<ref>John Gee, "Literary Titles from the Greco-Roman Period," in ''En detail: Philologie und Archäologie im Diskurs'' (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2019), 1:344-45 and examples [42], [43], [72], [73], [75], [76], [77], [78].</ref>

SpencerMarsh at 19:00, 11 August 2021

2021-08-11T19:00:03Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:00, 11 August 2021
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	\|claim=Ep. 1: 75:19-84:51 - When considering when Abraham would have lived, if he existed at all, it would have been long before the time when the Joseph Smith Papyri were created, so 1) could have not been “written by his own hand.”		\|claim=Ep. 1: 75:19-84:51 - When considering when Abraham would have lived, if he existed at all, it would have been long before the time when the Joseph Smith Papyri were created, so 1) could have not been “written by his own hand.”
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|~~There~~ is ~~a reasonable case~~ to be ~~made~~ that ~~The Book~~ of ~~Abraham does not have~~ to ~~be written~~ by the ~~real life Abraham~~ to ~~report authentic information about his life~~ and/~~or to be true.~~		{{misinformation\|It is surprising that Professor Ritner would make this argument since the beginning textbook he taught out of for years says that "by the hand of" means "with, from, by, through" and he himself used to teach that it was not always to be taken literally.<ref>Janet H. Johnson, ''Thus Wrote Onchsheshonqy: An Introductory Grammar of Demotic'', 2nd ed. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1991), 31, 107.</ref> The dictionary that he helped edit says that it can mean "by, from the hand of, to, in(to) the hand of, in the possession of; in, near, with, from, by, to, for; in the hand, control of; in the possession of; into the presence of, beside; because of, concerning; through, because of; from, with regard to; by." (CDD D, 63-64). In titles of Egyptian texts, this phrase always indicates the author.<ref>John Gee, "Literary Titles from the Greco-Roman Period," in ''En detail: Philologie und Archäologie im Diskurs'' (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2019), 1:344-45 and examples [42], [43], [72], [73], [75], [76], [77], [78].</ref>
	}}		}}
	{{:Book of Abraham/By his own hand}}		{{:Book of Abraham/By his own hand}}

SpencerMarsh at 02:39, 11 August 2021

2021-08-11T02:39:49Z

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 {{:Question: Was the original head of the priest in Book of Abraham Facsimile 1 actually the jackal head of Anubis?}}
 {{:Question: Was the priest depicted in Book of Abraham Facsimile 1 holding a knife or was it some other object?}}
 =Claims about Specific Figures in Facsimile 1=