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Question: Was Apostle Orson Hyde sent on a mission to dedicate Israel so that Joseph Smith could secretly marry his wife, Marinda Hyde, while he was away?

2022-10-03T20:11:36Z

StefanIsaksen: /* Orson was involved briefly with apostasy at Far West in the fall of 1838, but had returned to the Church by March 1839 */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Was Apostle Orson Hyde sent on a mission to dedicate Israel so that Joseph Smith could secretly marry his wife, Marinda Hyde, while he was away?==
===Orson was involved briefly with apostasy at Far West in the fall of 1838, but had returned to the Church by March 1839===

Marinda Nancy Johnson married future apostle Orson Hyde on 4 September 1834. He was involved briefly with apostasy at Far West in the fall of 1838, but had returned to the Church by March 1839 following a dramatic vision in which he saw the consequence of continued rebellion. <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=234}}</ref>

Marinda was sealed to Joseph either in April 1842, while Orson was on a mission, or in May 1843, after Orson had returned. Since there are two conflicting sources, there are two alternatives for the sealing date. The later date comes from Miranda's own affidavit and the earlier date comes from one of Joseph's scribes, Thomas Bullock<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|273-274}}</ref>. Only antagonistic accounts of this sealing exist. <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=238–239}}</ref> Of the four reports, two claim that Orson was aware of the sealing, and two claim that he was not.

===If the earlier sealing date is correct, Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing===

It is of note that Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing if the earlier sealing date is correct--he departed on 15 April 1840, and would return 7 December 1842. Thus, even with the earliest sealing date, Orson had been gone for nearly two years prior to Joseph's sealing to Nancy.

This long delay does not fit well with the claim that a sexually-aggressive Joseph simply wanted his male rivals out of the way.

===The Hydes divorced in 1870, but Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death===
The Hydes were to divorce in 1870: "The precise reasons for the divorce are not known, but it appears that Orson was giving most of his attention to his younger wives at this time." <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=230–243}}</ref>

Unique to the Hyde's marriage is the fact that Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death. All of the Prophet's other polyandrous wives were posthumously sealed to Joseph by proxy. <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=240–242}}</ref>

===Marinda's children Orson W. Hyde and Frank Henry Hyde===

Two of Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde's children have been suggested as possible children. The first, Orson, died in infancy, making DNA testing impossible. Compton notes, however, that "Marinda had no children while Orson was on his mission to Jerusalem, then became pregnant soon after Orson returned home. (He arrived in Nauvoo on December 7, 1842, and Marinda bore Orson Washington Hyde on November 9, 1843),"<ref>{{Book:Compton:Brodie on JS Plural Wives/Short|pages=165}}</ref> putting the conception date around 16 February 1843.

Frank Hyde's birth date is unclear; he was born on 23 January in either 1845 or 1846.<ref>{{CriticalWork:Brodie:No Man Knows/Short|pages=345, 464}} gives his birth as 1845, though there is no footnote indicating her source. Frank's death certificate lists his birth in 1846}} Compton follows the date of 1846, citing Howard H. Barron, Orson Hyde: Missionary-Apostle-Colonizer (Salt Lake City: Horizon, 1977), 134 and Ancestral File.</ref> This would place his conception around 2 May, of either 1844 or 1845. In the former case, Frank was conceived less than two months prior to Joseph's martyrdom. Orson Hyde left for Washington, D.C., around 4 April 1844,<ref>{{Book:Smith:HC|pages=286|vol=6}} Times and Seasons 5 (15 September 1844): 651}}</ref> and did not return until 6 August 1844, making Joseph's paternity more likely than Orson's if the earlier birth date is correct.<ref>{{Book:Jenson:LDS Church Chronology|date=6 August 1844}}.</ref> The key source for this claim is Fawn Brodie, who includes no footnote or reference. Given Brodie's tendency to misread evidence on potential children, this claim should be approached with caution.

Frank's death certificate lists Orson Hyde as the father, however, and places his birth in 1846, which would require conception nearly a year after Joseph's death.<ref>Frank H. Hyde, State of Utah--Death Certificate, State Board of Health File No. 967300}} Online at <http://wiki.hanksplace.net/index.php/Image:FrankHHyde.jpg></ref> A child by Joseph would have brought prestige to the family and Church, and Orson and Nancy had divorced long before Frank Henry's death.<ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=249}}</ref> It seems unlikely, therefore, that Orson would be credited with paternity over Joseph if any doubt existed. Without further data, Brodie's dating should probably be regarded as an error, ruling out Joseph as a possible father.
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

[[es:Pregunta: ¿Fue apóstol Orson Hyde que fue enviado en una misión para dedicarse a Israel para que José Smith podría secreto casará con su mujer, Marinda Hyde, mientras él estaba ausente?]]
[[pt:Pergunta: Foi o Apóstolo Orson Hyde enviado a uma missão para dedicar Israel para que Joseph pudesse secretamente casar-se com sua esposa, Marinda Hyde, enquanto estava longe?]]

Question: Was Apostle Orson Hyde sent on a mission to dedicate Israel so that Joseph Smith could secretly marry his wife, Marinda Hyde, while he was away?

2022-10-03T20:11:11Z

StefanIsaksen: /* Question: Was Apostle Orson Hyde sent on a mission to dedicate Israel so that Joseph Smith could secretly marry his wife, Marinda Hyde, while he was away? */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Was Apostle Orson Hyde sent on a mission to dedicate Israel so that Joseph Smith could secretly marry his wife, Marinda Hyde, while he was away?==
===Orson was involved briefly with apostasy at Far West in the fall of 1838, but had returned to the Church by March 1839===

Marinda Nancy Johnson married future apostle Orson Hyde on 4 September 1834. He was involved briefly with apostasy at Far West in the fall of 1838, but had returned to the Church by March 1839 following a dramatic vision in which he saw the consequence of continued rebellion. <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=234}}</ref>

Marinda was sealed to Joseph either in April 1842, while Orson was on a mission, or in May 1843 after Orson had returned. Since there are two conflicting sources, there are two alternatives for the sealing date. The later date comes from Miranda's own affidavit and the earlier date comes from one of Joseph's scribes, Thomas Bullock<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|273-274}}</ref>. Only antagonistic accounts of this sealing exist. <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=238–239}}</ref> Of the four reports, two claim that Orson was aware of the sealing, and two claim that he was not.

===If the earlier sealing date is correct, Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing===

It is of note that Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing if the earlier sealing date is correct--he departed on 15 April 1840, and would return 7 December 1842. Thus, even with the earliest sealing date, Orson had been gone for nearly two years prior to Joseph's sealing to Nancy.

This long delay does not fit well with the claim that a sexually-aggressive Joseph simply wanted his male rivals out of the way.

===The Hydes divorced in 1870, but Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death===
The Hydes were to divorce in 1870: "The precise reasons for the divorce are not known, but it appears that Orson was giving most of his attention to his younger wives at this time." <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=230–243}}</ref>

Unique to the Hyde's marriage is the fact that Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death. All of the Prophet's other polyandrous wives were posthumously sealed to Joseph by proxy. <ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=240–242}}</ref>

===Marinda's children Orson W. Hyde and Frank Henry Hyde===

Two of Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde's children have been suggested as possible children. The first, Orson, died in infancy, making DNA testing impossible. Compton notes, however, that "Marinda had no children while Orson was on his mission to Jerusalem, then became pregnant soon after Orson returned home. (He arrived in Nauvoo on December 7, 1842, and Marinda bore Orson Washington Hyde on November 9, 1843),"<ref>{{Book:Compton:Brodie on JS Plural Wives/Short|pages=165}}</ref> putting the conception date around 16 February 1843.

Frank Hyde's birth date is unclear; he was born on 23 January in either 1845 or 1846.<ref>{{CriticalWork:Brodie:No Man Knows/Short|pages=345, 464}} gives his birth as 1845, though there is no footnote indicating her source. Frank's death certificate lists his birth in 1846}} Compton follows the date of 1846, citing Howard H. Barron, Orson Hyde: Missionary-Apostle-Colonizer (Salt Lake City: Horizon, 1977), 134 and Ancestral File.</ref> This would place his conception around 2 May, of either 1844 or 1845. In the former case, Frank was conceived less than two months prior to Joseph's martyrdom. Orson Hyde left for Washington, D.C., around 4 April 1844,<ref>{{Book:Smith:HC|pages=286|vol=6}} Times and Seasons 5 (15 September 1844): 651}}</ref> and did not return until 6 August 1844, making Joseph's paternity more likely than Orson's if the earlier birth date is correct.<ref>{{Book:Jenson:LDS Church Chronology|date=6 August 1844}}.</ref> The key source for this claim is Fawn Brodie, who includes no footnote or reference. Given Brodie's tendency to misread evidence on potential children, this claim should be approached with caution.

Frank's death certificate lists Orson Hyde as the father, however, and places his birth in 1846, which would require conception nearly a year after Joseph's death.<ref>Frank H. Hyde, State of Utah--Death Certificate, State Board of Health File No. 967300}} Online at <http://wiki.hanksplace.net/index.php/Image:FrankHHyde.jpg></ref> A child by Joseph would have brought prestige to the family and Church, and Orson and Nancy had divorced long before Frank Henry's death.<ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL/Short|pages=249}}</ref> It seems unlikely, therefore, that Orson would be credited with paternity over Joseph if any doubt existed. Without further data, Brodie's dating should probably be regarded as an error, ruling out Joseph as a possible father.
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

[[es:Pregunta: ¿Fue apóstol Orson Hyde que fue enviado en una misión para dedicarse a Israel para que José Smith podría secreto casará con su mujer, Marinda Hyde, mientras él estaba ausente?]]
[[pt:Pergunta: Foi o Apóstolo Orson Hyde enviado a uma missão para dedicar Israel para que Joseph pudesse secretamente casar-se com sua esposa, Marinda Hyde, enquanto estava longe?]]

Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?

2022-10-03T20:01:46Z

StefanIsaksen: /* The only question regards Orson Hyde, who had been on his mission for one year to two years before the sealing */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?==
===This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were not on missions at the time and there is insufficient or contradictory information about the other two===

One critic of the Church states, "Joseph Smith would frequently approach other men’s wives about being his own plural wives — often while the men were away." <ref>{{CriticalWork:Dehlin:Questions and Answers:25 June 2014}}</ref>

Researcher Brian C. Hales noted that this claim is without foundation:

<blockquote>
Another detail in [John C.] Bennett's Pittsburgh affidavit is that the Prophet had sent men on missions so he could marry their wives in Nauvoo. This statement is contradicted by historical data. Of the twelve "polyandrous" husbands identified by Todd Compton, ten were not on missions at the time Joseph was sealed to their legal wives. Of the two possible exceptions, only one, Orson Hyde, is documented as on a mission at the time of [[Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives#Marinda_Nancy_Johnson_Hyde|Marinda Johnson Hyde's]] sealing to Joseph Smith. The second possible case involves George Harris, who left on his fourteen-month mission in July 1840. His wife, Lucinda may have been...sealed to Joseph Smith at some point, but the date is unavailable.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=313–314}}</ref>
</blockquote>

===The only question regards Orson Hyde, who had been on his mission for one year to two years before the sealing===

It is of note that Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing--he departed on 15 April 1840, and would return 7 December 1842. There are two dates available for her sealing to Joseph--either April/Spring 1842, or May 1843.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=273–274}}</ref> Thus, even with the earliest sealing date, Orson had been gone for nearly two years prior to Joseph's sealing to Nancy. If the second sealing date is correct, Orson was already home from his mission at the time.

This long delay does not fit well with the claim that a sexually-aggressive Joseph simply wanted his male rivals out of the way.

===Hyde's wife Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death===

Unique to the Hyde's marriage is the fact that Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death. All of the Prophet's other polyandrous wives were posthumously sealed to Joseph by proxy.<ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL|pages=240–242}}</ref>

Much of what we know about the Hyde sealing is also contaminated by hostile, mutually contradictory accounts that contain some known false information.
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[Category:John Dehlin's "Questions and Answers"]]
[[Category:No Man Knows My History]]

[[fi:Kysymys: Lähettikö Joseph Smith miehiä lähetystyöhön “varastaakseen” heidän vaimonsa?]]
[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith envió a hombres en misiones para "tomar" a sus esposas mientras se fueron?]]

Question: Was the Mormon priesthood ban simply a policy or was it doctrine?

2021-10-17T18:47:34Z

StefanIsaksen: /* According to the Church, the priesthood ban was a policy implemented by Brigham Young */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Was the Mormon priesthood ban simply a policy or was it doctrine?==
===According to the Church, the priesthood ban was a policy implemented by Brigham Young===

According to the Church, the priesthood ban was a policy implemented by Brigham Young. There was no priesthood restriction in place during the time of Joseph Smith.

===Background===
Members of the Church who were considered to be of African descent were restricted from holding the LDS Church's lay priesthood prior to 1978. The reason for the ban is not known. There is no contemporary, first-person account of the ban's implementation. There is no known written revelation instituting the ban. In 1949, the First Presidency, led by President George Albert Smith, indicated that the priesthood ban had been imposed by "direct commandment from the Lord."
<blockquote>
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time.<br>
—First Presidency statement, August 17, 1949
</blockquote>

The First Presidency went on to state that "the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate."
Because of this, understanding the reason for the implementation of the priesthood ban is difficult.

However, once the ban was in place—whether as a matter of revelation, or as a policy that arose out of the Church's 19th-century origins—members and leaders did not feel that they could simply "change" things.

Many modern Protestant denominations believe in a "priesthood of all believers," and settle doctrinal differences via councils, meetings, or plebiscites. As new social realities develop (e.g., the civil rights movement, women's suffrage, "gay rights," etc.), denominations adapt or modify previous stances.

This is not how the Church functions, and non-members may not appreciate this fact. Members or leaders of the Church do not feel that they have the right to alter previous practices or doctrines without direct revelation from God. Much as the ban confused and troubled many members—black and white—leaders did not feel at liberty to alter them without divine guidance. It is also important to realize that priesthood, in the LDS tradition, is not a right, nor is it something to be used to grant or enhance spiritual or social "status."

Furthermore, efforts to use political pressure against the Church may have slowed the change, since members do not believe that God will allow the Church to appear 'manipulated' by outside forces to create a convenient 'revelation' merely to satisfy social pressures.

It also important to give credit to Church members' strengths in the pre-1978 period:
* Church doctrine never held that blacks were less than human or without souls, as some denominations did
* Joseph Smith taught that any mental or economic weakness suffered by blacks was not due to any in-born defect, but simply due to not having ample opportunity to advance and receive the same education as whites
* Church members were overwhelmingly abolitionist and were even persecuted and driven out because of their anti-slavery leanings
* the Church never had segregated congregations; all members worshipped together
* the Church supported equal civil rights for many years before the 1978 revelation: to the Church, the issue of priesthood was not one of civil rights or granting status, but of revelation.
* sociologic studies demonstrated that pre-1978 Mormons were no more or less racist than their contemporaries

==Racist doctrine?==

The most unfortunate legacy of the ban is perhaps an aspect that was least intended. Since many members were sincerely concerned about the justice of the ban, many sought to explain it through a variety of hypotheses. Such "doctrinal folklore" was never official, but became widespread as members sought to reconcile their ideas about the justice and mercy of God with the ban's reality. In a good faith effort to understand, members drew on ideas about blacks then current in Protestantism generally.

Leaders of the Church have repeatedly emphasized that such explanations were misguided and never represented official doctrine.

For example, Elder Dallin H. Oaks pointed out that some leaders and members had ill-advisedly sought to provide justifications for the ban:

:...It's not the pattern of the Lord to give reasons. We can put reasons to commandments. When we do we're on our own. Some people put reasons to [the ban] and they turned out to be spectacularly wrong. There is a lesson in that.... The lesson I've drawn from that, I decided a long time ago that I had faith in the command and I had no faith in the reasons that had been suggested for it.

:...I'm referring to reasons given by general authorities and reasons elaborated upon [those reasons] by others. The whole set of reasons seemed to me to be unnecessary risk taking.

:...Let's [not] make the mistake that's been made in the past, here and in other areas, trying to put reasons to revelation. The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent. The revelations are what we sustain as the will of the Lord and that's where safety lies. <ref>Dallin H. Oaks, Interview with Associated Press, in ''Daily Herald,'' Provo, Utah, 5 June 1988.</ref>

Interviewed for a PBS special on the Church, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said:

:One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...

:It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger [apostles] to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place. <ref>Jeffrey R. Holland, Interview, 4 March 2006. {{link|url=http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html}}</ref>

Recent remarks by the current prophet, President Hinckley, demonstrate that members of the LDS church must put aside any thoughts or legacy of racial intolerance or unkindness:

:Racial strife still lifts its ugly head. I am advised that even right here among us there is some of this. I cannot understand how it can be. It seemed to me that we all rejoiced in the 1978 revelation given President Kimball. I was there in the temple at the time that that happened. There was no doubt in my mind or in the minds of my associates that what was revealed was the mind and the will of the Lord.

:Now I am told that racial slurs and denigrating remarks are sometimes heard among us. I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ. How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?

:Throughout my service as a member of the First Presidency, I have recognized and spoken a number of times on the diversity we see in our society. It is all about us, and we must make an effort to accommodate that diversity.

:Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.

:Brethren, there is no basis for racial hatred among the priesthood of this Church. If any within the sound of my voice is inclined to indulge in this, then let him go before the Lord and ask for forgiveness and be no more involved in such. <ref>{{Ensign | author=Gordon B. Hinckley | article=The Need for Greater Kindness|date=May 2006|start=58|end=61 }}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/05/the-need-for-greater-kindness?lang=eng}}</ref>

===== =====
{{ChurchResponseBar
|link=http://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
|title=Race and the Priesthood
|publication=Gospel Topics
|date=2013
|summary=In 1850, the U.S. Congress created Utah Territory, and the U.S. president appointed Brigham Young to the position of territorial governor. Southerners who had converted to the Church and migrated to Utah with their slaves raised the question of slavery’s legal status in the territory. In two speeches delivered before the Utah territorial legislature in January and February 1852, Brigham Young announced a policy restricting men of black African descent from priesthood ordination. At the same time, President Young said that at some future day, black Church members would “have [all] the privilege and more” enjoyed by other members.
}}

</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[es:Pregunta: ¿Fue la prohibición del sacerdocio mormón simplemente una política o fue una doctrina?]]

Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?

2021-04-03T18:23:15Z

StefanIsaksen: /* This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were not on missions at the time. There is insufficient or contradictory information about the other two */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?==
===This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were not on missions at the time and there is insufficient or contradictory information about the other two===

One critic of the Church states, "Joseph Smith would frequently approach other men’s wives about being his own plural wives — often while the men were away." <ref>{{CriticalWork:Dehlin:Questions and Answers:25 June 2014}}</ref>

Researcher Brian C. Hales noted that this claim is without foundation:

<blockquote>
Another detail in [John C.] Bennett's Pittsburgh affidavit is that the Prophet had sent men on missions so he could marry their wives in Nauvoo. This statement is contradicted by historical data. Of the twelve "polyandrous" husbands identified by Todd Compton, ten were not on missions at the time Joseph was sealed to their legal wives. Of the two possible exceptions, only one, Orson Hyde, is documented as on a mission at the time of [[Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives#Marinda_Nancy_Johnson_Hyde|Marinda Johnson Hyde's]] sealing to Joseph Smith. The second possible case involves George Harris, who left on his fourteen-month mission in July 1840. His wife, Lucinda may have been...sealed to Joseph Smith at some point, but the date is unavailable.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=313–314}}</ref>
</blockquote>

===The only question regards Orson Hyde, who had been on his mission for one year to two years before the sealing===

It is of note that Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing--he departed on 15 April 1840, and would return 7 December 1842. There are two dates available for her sealing to Joseph--either April/Spring 1842, or May 1843.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=273–274}}</ref> Thus, even with the earliest sealing date, Orson had been gone for nearly two years prior to Joseph's sealing to Nancy.

This long delay does not fit well with the claim that a sexually-aggressive Joseph simply wanted his male rivals out of the way.

===Hyde's wife Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death===

Unique to the Hyde's marriage is the fact that Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death. All of the Prophet's other polyandrous wives were posthumously sealed to Joseph by proxy.<ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL|pages=240–242}}</ref>

Much of what we know about the Hyde sealing is also contaminated by hostile, mutually contradictory accounts that contain some known false information.
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[Category:John Dehlin's "Questions and Answers"]]
[[Category:No Man Knows My History]]

[[fi:Kysymys: Lähettikö Joseph Smith miehiä lähetystyöhön “varastaakseen” heidän vaimonsa?]]
[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith envió a hombres en misiones para "tomar" a sus esposas mientras se fueron?]]

Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?

2021-04-03T18:11:23Z

StefanIsaksen: /* This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were demonstrably not on missions at the time. There is insufficient or contradictory information about the other two */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?==
===This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were not on missions at the time. There is insufficient or contradictory information about the other two===

One critic of the Church states, "Joseph Smith would frequently approach other men’s wives about being his own plural wives — often while the men were away." <ref>{{CriticalWork:Dehlin:Questions and Answers:25 June 2014}}</ref>

Researcher Brian C. Hales noted that this claim is without foundation:

<blockquote>
Another detail in [John C.] Bennett's Pittsburgh affidavit is that the Prophet had sent men on missions so he could marry their wives in Nauvoo. This statement is contradicted by historical data. Of the twelve "polyandrous" husbands identified by Todd Compton, ten were not on missions at the time Joseph was sealed to their legal wives. Of the two possible exceptions, only one, Orson Hyde, is documented as on a mission at the time of [[Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives#Marinda_Nancy_Johnson_Hyde|Marinda Johnson Hyde's]] sealing to Joseph Smith. The second possible case involves George Harris, who left on his fourteen-month mission in July 1840. His wife, Lucinda may have been...sealed to Joseph Smith at some point, but the date is unavailable.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=313–314}}</ref>
</blockquote>

===The only question regards Orson Hyde, who had been on his mission for one year to two years before the sealing===

It is of note that Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing--he departed on 15 April 1840, and would return 7 December 1842. There are two dates available for her sealing to Joseph--either April/Spring 1842, or May 1843.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=273–274}}</ref> Thus, even with the earliest sealing date, Orson had been gone for nearly two years prior to Joseph's sealing to Nancy.

This long delay does not fit well with the claim that a sexually-aggressive Joseph simply wanted his male rivals out of the way.

===Hyde's wife Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death===

Unique to the Hyde's marriage is the fact that Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death. All of the Prophet's other polyandrous wives were posthumously sealed to Joseph by proxy.<ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL|pages=240–242}}</ref>

Much of what we know about the Hyde sealing is also contaminated by hostile, mutually contradictory accounts that contain some known false information.
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[Category:John Dehlin's "Questions and Answers"]]
[[Category:No Man Knows My History]]

[[fi:Kysymys: Lähettikö Joseph Smith miehiä lähetystyöhön “varastaakseen” heidän vaimonsa?]]
[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith envió a hombres en misiones para "tomar" a sus esposas mientras se fueron?]]

Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?

2021-04-03T18:10:43Z

StefanIsaksen: /* This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were not on missions at the time */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Did Joseph Smith send men on missions in order to "steal" their wives while they were gone?==
===This claim is contradicted by historical data: ten of the husbands of the twelve "polyandrous" wives were demonstrably not on missions at the time. There is insufficient or contradictory information about the other two===

One critic of the Church states, "Joseph Smith would frequently approach other men’s wives about being his own plural wives — often while the men were away." <ref>{{CriticalWork:Dehlin:Questions and Answers:25 June 2014}}</ref>

Researcher Brian C. Hales noted that this claim is without foundation:

<blockquote>
Another detail in [John C.] Bennett's Pittsburgh affidavit is that the Prophet had sent men on missions so he could marry their wives in Nauvoo. This statement is contradicted by historical data. Of the twelve "polyandrous" husbands identified by Todd Compton, ten were not on missions at the time Joseph was sealed to their legal wives. Of the two possible exceptions, only one, Orson Hyde, is documented as on a mission at the time of [[Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives#Marinda_Nancy_Johnson_Hyde|Marinda Johnson Hyde's]] sealing to Joseph Smith. The second possible case involves George Harris, who left on his fourteen-month mission in July 1840. His wife, Lucinda may have been...sealed to Joseph Smith at some point, but the date is unavailable.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=313–314}}</ref>
</blockquote>

===The only question regards Orson Hyde, who had been on his mission for one year to two years before the sealing===

It is of note that Orson had been on his mission for about a year before the sealing--he departed on 15 April 1840, and would return 7 December 1842. There are two dates available for her sealing to Joseph--either April/Spring 1842, or May 1843.<ref>{{Book:Hales:Joseph Smith's Polygamy 1|pages=273–274}}</ref> Thus, even with the earliest sealing date, Orson had been gone for nearly two years prior to Joseph's sealing to Nancy.

This long delay does not fit well with the claim that a sexually-aggressive Joseph simply wanted his male rivals out of the way.

===Hyde's wife Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death===

Unique to the Hyde's marriage is the fact that Marinda was sealed to Orson following Joseph's death. All of the Prophet's other polyandrous wives were posthumously sealed to Joseph by proxy.<ref>{{Book:Compton:ISL|pages=240–242}}</ref>

Much of what we know about the Hyde sealing is also contaminated by hostile, mutually contradictory accounts that contain some known false information.
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[Category:John Dehlin's "Questions and Answers"]]
[[Category:No Man Knows My History]]

[[fi:Kysymys: Lähettikö Joseph Smith miehiä lähetystyöhön “varastaakseen” heidän vaimonsa?]]
[[es:Pregunta: ¿José Smith envió a hombres en misiones para "tomar" a sus esposas mientras se fueron?]]

Question: Did Emma Smith discover her husband Joseph with Fanny Alger in a barn?

2021-03-14T12:55:31Z

StefanIsaksen: /* William McLellin claimed to have heard a story that Fanny and Joseph were in the barn and Emma had observed them */

{{FairMormon}}
<onlyinclude>
==Question: Did Emma Smith discover her husband Joseph with Fanny Alger in a barn?==
===William McLellin claimed to have heard a story that Fanny and Joseph were in the barn and Emma had observed them===

In 1872, William McLellin (then an apostate excommunicated nearly 34 years prior) wrote a letter to Emma and Joseph's son, Joseph Smith III:
<blockquote>
Now Joseph I will relate to you some history, and refer you to your own dear Mother for the truth. You will probably remember that I visited your Mother and family in 1847, and held a lengthy conversation with her, retired in the Mansion House in Nauvoo. I did not ask her to tell, but I told her some stories I had heard. And she told me whether I was properly informed. Dr. F. G. Williams practiced with me in Clay Co. Mo. during the latter part of 1838. And he told me that at your birth your father committed an act with a Miss Hill [sic]—a hired girl. Emma saw him, and spoke to him. He desisted, but Mrs. Smith refused to be satisfied. He called in Dr. Williams, O. Cowdery, and S. Rigdon to reconcile Emma. But she told them just as the circumstances took place. He found he was caught. He confessed humbly, and begged forgiveness. Emma and all forgave him. She told me this story was true!! Again I told her I heard that one night she missed Joseph and Fanny Alger. She went to the barn and saw him and Fanny in the barn together alone. She looked through a crack and saw the transaction!!! She told me this story too was verily true.
<ref>William McLellin, Letter to Joseph Smith III, July 1872, Community of Christ Archives</ref>
</blockquote>

Some critics interpret "transaction" to mean intercourse in this case and that Emma caught Joseph in the very act. But McLellin reported on the event again three years afterwards in 1975 to J. H. Beadle and makes it clear that he is talking about the wedding or sealing ceremony:
<blockquote>
He [McLellin] was in the vicinity during all the Mormon troubles in Northern Missouri, and grieved heavily over the suffering of his former brethren. He also informed me of the spot where the first well authenticated case of polygamy took place in which Joseph Smith was “sealed” to the hired girl. The “sealing” took place in a barn on the hay mow, and was witnessed by Mrs. Smith through a crack in the door! The Doctor was so distressed about this case, (it created some scandal at the time among the Saints,) that long afterwards when he visited Mrs. Emma Smith at Nauvoo, he charged her as she hoped for salvation to tell him the truth about it. And she then and there declared on her honor that it was a fact—“saw it with her own eyes.”
<ref>William McClellin, quoted in J. H. Beadle, “Jackson County,” 4</ref>
</blockquote>

===Ann Eliza Webb, who was born 11 years after Joseph's marriage to Fanny, claimed that Emma threw Fanny out of the house===

Ann Eliza Webb, who was born in 1844, was not even alive at the time of these events, could only only comment based upon what her father told her about Joseph and Fanny. Ann apostatized from the Church and wrote an "expose" called ''Wife No. 19, or The story of a Life in Bondage''. She described Fanny as follows:
<blockquote>
Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem. Consequently is was with a shocked surprise that people heard that sister Emma had turned Fanny out of the house in the night.<ref>Ann Eliza Webb Young, ''Wife No. 19, or The story of a Life in Bondage'', 66.</ref>
</blockquote>
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}
[[Category:No Man Knows My History]]
[[Category:One Nation Under Gods]]

[[pt:Pergunta: É verdade que Emma Smith descobriu seu marido Joseph com Fanny Alger em um celeiro?]]
[[es:Pregunta: ¿Emma Smith descubrió a su esposo Joseph con Fanny Alger en un granero?]]