Question: Why did Orson Hyde say: "Do I believe that the United States will be divided? yes, I do; and the prayers of all the Saints throughout the world should be to that effect"?

2017-05-31T14:04:16Z

RKM:

{{FME-Source
|title=Why did Orson Hyde say: "Do I believe that the United States will be divided? yes, I do; and the prayers of all the Saints throughout the world should be to that effect"?
|category=Government
}}
<onlyinclude>
==Why did Orson Hyde say: "Do I believe that the United States will be divided? yes, I do; and the prayers of all the Saints throughout the world should be to that effect"?==
===Orson Hyde said this because the United States was sending an army against the Saints, based on false information===

Orson Hyde's words in context read:

<blockquote>
Do I believe that the United States will be divided? Yes, I do; and the prayers of all the Saints throughout the world should be to that effect; for they wage war against the kingdom of God, and have fallen upon that stone with an army; and let them be broken, even according to the words of Jesus.

"'''If the army now invading Utah should be overthrown'''," says an unbeliever, "are you not fearful that a much larger one will be sent to chastise you?" No, sir; I am not. If we honour our God by keeping his law, no army of this world can ever prevail against us; and the greater its numbers, the greater and more complete its overthrow. If the Red Sea be not the trap in which the enemy will be caught, there will be a snow or hailstorm, a whirlwind, an earthquake, fire from above or from beneath, or the sword of the Lord and of Brigham. I only fear that we may not live so that God will hear and answer our prayers. If we get any important petition granted by any legislative body, we must have some influence enlisted in its favour; and if we expect God to grant our petitions, we must so live before him as to have influence with him. To have influence with the king is next to being king ourselves.

'''We do not desire to shed the blood of our enemies'''. We have never desired it. But our prayers should be, that the power and strength arrayed against us may be broken by the providence of God, or by the arm of his power; that they may be smitten with confusion and darkness; that the means they may adopt for their success may be providentially overruled for their overthrow; that they may be wasted away like the early frosts, and be scattered about like chaff before the wind, until, as the martyred Joseph said, just before he was murdered by Governor Ford's mob, there shall not be a potsherd of them left. This prayer should not be confined to our enemies on our immediate borders; for they are only the blind tools of a power that has decreed our overthrow; but should extend, with increased faith and zeal, to that very power that handles these tools.
</blockquote>

On Joseph's prophecy, see [[Joseph_Smith_prophecies/Government_to_be_overthrown_and_wasted|Potsherd prophecy]]
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}
[[Category:One Nation Under Gods]]

Journal of Discourses/4/44

2017-05-30T16:00:32Z

RKM:

{{header2
| title = [[../../]]
| author = Wilford Woodruff
| noauthor=
| section=[[../|Volume 4]], INTELLIGENCE COMES FROM GOD—SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD—GREAT CHANGES TO TAKE PLACE ON THE EARTH—ISRAEL OF THE LAST DAYS—WHY THE JEWS CANNOT BE CONVERTED
| previous=[[../43|The Ax That Is Laid at the Root of the Tree—Regeneration—Products of Polygamy, a Numerous Offspring, etc.]]
| next=[[../45|The Parable of the Sower—The Priesthood Reaches Behind the Vail—How Intolerable it Will be for Those Who Apostatize—Popularity of Governor Young Compared with that of the Rulers of the Nations—The Kingdoms of This World, etc.]]
| notes=A Discourse by Elder Wilford Woodruff, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 22, 1857.
(Online document scan [http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/JournalOfDiscourses3&CISOPTR=9596&REC=4 ''Journal of Discourses'', Volume 4])
}}

{{page break|227|top}}
I feel it a privilege to bear testimony before the Saints to the exhortations we have heard this morning from brothers Richards and Wells. We have had good teachings, good counsel, and good doctrine taught us. And I presume I feel in a measure like the rest of my brethren when I rise to speak to this people in the Tabernacle, where such large congregations of Saints assemble; I have a desire that what I say may do the people good, may edify them. My brethren also have the same desire.

We realize that the minds of this people need feeding continually, and we all have to depend upon the Holy Spirit and the Lord to feed our minds from that inexhaustible fountain of intelligence which comes from God, for we cannot obtain food from any other source to feed the immortal mind of man. Here are a large assembly of minds who are reaching forth to receive light and truth before the Lord.

I realize that we have a great many lessons to learn in the school we are in, and myself as a teacher in connexion with my brethren have also a great deal to learn. I feel that I am yet in my alphabet, and feel sometimes that I am incapable of teaching this people, when I realize they are in the road which leads to celestial glory —to eternal life and eternal exaltation. I know I am dependent as I know my brethren are upon God, upon the Holy Ghost for all the light, truth, and intelligence which we have to impart unto you.

The words which brother Wells quoted, and which brother Samuel Richards referred to, furnish as strong a proof as can be furnished as to the true principle of prosperity, touching things temporal and things spiritual. I refer to the words of Jesus Christ which he spoke to his followers: "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all other things shall be added unto you." I will tell you, brethren and sisters, we may try it all the days of our lives, we may try every path and every principle in this world, and we as Saints cannot prosper upon any other mode of proceeding than by first seeking the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness; when we do this there is no blessing, there is no good, no exaltation, gift, grace, desire, or anything that a good man can wish that is profitable, and good for time and for eternity, but will be given unto us.

A great many people have tried to seek for happiness independent of first seeking the kingdom of heaven, &c., but they have always found it an uphill business, and so shall we if we try it.

We as a people should have learned by this time, after having the experience we have gained, to make up our minds to take hold and build up the kingdom of God, and it should be {{page break|228|top}} the first thing before us, for if we build up the kingdom of God we build up ourselves, and if we do not we never shall be built up. This is the truth. There seems to be something connected with the kingdom of God and that is righteousness; we are exhorted to seek the righteousness that belongs to it as well as the kingdom itself.

The kingdom of God is a righteous kingdom, all its laws are righteous, its government is a righteous government, and the king who governs and controls it does so upon righteous and eternal principles, and we must act upon the same principles of righteousness. Who cannot see that if a man seeks first the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness that he will become righteous and hence he will be blessed and justified in all of his acts.

With regard to the feelings of the people that brothers Wells and Richards have referred to, touching the consecration of their property and dedicating themselves to God, I will say, if we build up the kingdom of God we should be in that kingdom, and all we have should be in it, and we should have faith enough in the Lord to know it is in a safe place.

I am a good deal of the opinion of old Captain Russell, who was an extensive ship-builder, and paid thousands of dollars yearly to the Gentiles as insurance fees. After he embraced "Mormonism," he began to reflect, "here am I paying thousands of dollars yearly to the Gentiles to insure my ships, and I have to trust to the God of heaven after all to save my ships from sinking, and to prosper me in all my undertakings; this is not right." So he went to Liverpool, where the insurance office was, to settle his insurance bills and close up his business with the firm.

The gentlemen of the firm asked him when he had got through, saying, "Have we not treated you well, Mr. Russell?" "Yes, I have no fault to find with you." "What, then, is your object in pursuing this course? We have done business with you a good many years; we want to know if you are going to change your insurance office?" "I am." "Will you tell us where you are going to have your business done in the future?" "Yes, I am going to have it done in heaven, for the insurance offices do not control the winds, the elements are not obedient to them, and I have been paying ten thousand dollars a year for insuring a few ships, and I have to trust in the Lord anyhow, so in the future I shall pay my insurance fee into the Lord's treasury."

The gentlemen of the office thought he was cracked or beside himself, for I tell you trusting in the Lord in these days is an unpopular business with the world. But the Saints have to trust in the Lord, and we might as well begin and seek this kingdom and the interest of it, and the righteousness of it, and build it up first as last. I believe the people are reforming in this thing; I believe they are increasing in their faith, and have manifested it here in the city this winter, and I am glad to see it.

The exhortation we have had this morning is proper and seasonable, as we have been sowing the seed of the word this winter among the people, and we should watch and see that the seed is sown in good ground, and try to cultivate the principles we hear that the fruits of righteousness may appear in abundance. In doing this we will be saved.

We have had one of the most interesting seasons this winter that we have ever enjoyed since the Church and kingdom of God has been organized in the last days. We have had new lessons opened unto us by the servants of the Lord, and among those things the mercy of the Lord has been manifested in a great degree towards this people. I have reflected {{page break|229|top}} on His mercy and I feel we should be faithful and humble, and prove true unto the Lord our God because of this mercy which has been manifested unto us, and we should be very careful hereafter, as President Young exhorted us the last time he spoke concerning this people continuing to commit sin. He plainly laid before us the consequences of this course; we should let the past suffice wherein we have done anything in which we cannot be justified. I am satisfied that the people in these valleys will never hear the same proclamation which we have heard this winter.

If this people with the light they have, the teachings they have, and the examples they have had set before them intermingled with chastisement —if they still will go on and be neglectful of their duties, with regard to their salvation they will have to pay the debt, for the sinner in Zion will be cut off from the Church of God, and will have to pay the penalty whether it be small or great. It is of the utmost importance that we should guard ourselves against sin as the tree of life is guarded. We have no time to throw away in the service of sin, in committing iniquity and grieving the Holy Spirit of God.

I tell you when you look around and see the state of the world on the one hand, and what we have to perform on the other, and what the kingdom of God has got to arrive at in order to fulfil its destiny and the revelations of Jesus Christ, our chief object should be to build up the kingdom of God and roll it on.

As I remarked last evening in the High Priests' Quorum, we have been rolling this kingdom up-hill, up a mountain; we have been toiling against a mighty current all the day long from its first organization, but the day will soon come, if this people will do their duty and take hold of the kingdom of God as they should do, it will soon get on the top of the mountain, and then it will begin to roll down from the mountains, and it will gather both strength and speed as it goes, and then instead of singing "Get out of the way, the hand-carts rolling," it will be "Get out of the way the kingdom's coming," and it will not stop until it has filled the whole earth. The Lord has proclaimed this in all the revelations He has given on the subject.

This kingdom has got to stand, spread itself abroad, and gather unto itself strength. The Lord is going to work with this kingdom, and with this people. The Lord says in the parable of the vineyard, "My servants laboured with their mights, and the Lord laboured with them, and they prevailed, and brought forth the fruits of the kingdom, and the bitter branches were broken off, and the tame olive brought forth good fruit, and the vineyard was no more corrupt." This should be uppermost in our minds, we should look for the building up of the kingdom, and secure not only blessings for ourselves, but seek to become saviours of men on Mount Zion, and try to do all the good we can, labouring to promote the cause and interest of Zion in every department thereof where we are all called to act.

By pursuing this course we shall be prospered, and have continual peace in our minds, and as the Lord has said, nothing will be withheld from any man that seeks for the righteousness and blessings of the kingdom of God. Salvation should be the uppermost thing with us, and you will find if ever we seek to do something else besides carrying out the dictates of the Holy Spirit, we will get into the fog and into darkness and trouble, and we shall be ignorant of the way we are pursuing. Every day that we live we need the power of the Lord—the power of His Holy Spirit and the {{page break|230|top}} strength of the Priesthood to be with us that we may know what to do. And if we will so live before the Lord, the Spirit will reveal to us every day what our duties are; I do not care what it is we are engaged in, we should first find out the will of the Lord and then do it, and then our work will be well done and acceptable before the Lord, but if we take a course against light and against the Spirit of God, we will find it an unprofitable road to travel.

I feel as though the Lord is going to do a great work in the midst of this people. There are a great many things at our door, a great many changes to take place in the earth, and the kingdom is growing; and I would here exhort all the Latter day Saints who hear me this day to study well the position you are in, and search your hearts and see if we are in the favour of the Lord our God, and then let us increase continually in faith, in hope, in righteousness, and in every virtuous principle which is necessary for us to have to sustain us in every trial through which we may be called to pass, in order to prove us as the friends of God, whether we will abide in the covenant or not; we will be tried from this time, until the coming of the Messiah or while we live on the earth.

If we could open the vision of our minds, and let it extend into the future and see this kingdom, and what it is bound to accomplish, and what we have to do, the warfare we have to pass through, we would certainly see that we have a great work on hand. We have not only to fight the powers of darkness, the invisible forces that surround us, but we have to war with a great many outward circumstances and to contend with a great many difficulties that we must of necessity meet, and the more of this we have to meet the more we should be stimulated to action, and to labour with all our power before the Lord for the establishment of righteousness and truth and the building up of the work of God, and to see that His name is honoured upon the earth.

Brother Wells has said, why the world is troubled about us is because we are united. This is true; the world and the devil are afraid of it, and he has laboured all his life to divide everything where righteousness dwelt, or at least ever since he was cast out from the presence of God, what he did before that I cannot say any further than what is revealed. We have got to be one and labour together to build up this kingdom because we cannot establish it upon any other principle.

We should be careful to know that we are right and then go ahead, and we will find it to our advantage, and we shall be satisfied with our reward if we pursue that course which is according to the commandments of God. When we come into the presence of our Father in heaven we shall meet with His approbation, this alone will reward us for our labours.

If we go to work and build up the kingdom of God instead of ourselves, it is no matter in what shape we do it, whether it is in building a canal, or in building a temple, preaching the Gospel, cultivating the earth, or anything else, let us take that and make it a business, and we will find the Lord will help, sustain, and nerve us with His power, and will assist us in everything we have to do, and if we are called to lay down our lives in the defence of God and eternal truth, then all right, and if we live, all right, and when we come into the presence of the Lord we shall be satisfied with our reward and blessings.

The Lord has said He would prove us whether we would abide in His covenant even unto death; indeed we have been tried from the {{page break|231|top}} commencement of this great work, but there has been an invisible hand at work for our defence all the time; the wicked have not seen the power that has sustained us, they cannot see the inside machinery that is at work in this kingdom, the nations of the earth cannot understand it, and they never can comprehend it, but the Latter-day Saints understand it, and they know that it is the power of God and the word of God, for the Lord has made proclamations and decrees, and covenants concerning Israel in the last days, and all the Prophets, from righteous Abel to Brigham Young, have proclaimed it to the nations of the earth, as with the voice of thunder, and we know they will be fulfilled; we know the Gospel has to be offered to the Gentiles first, we have offered it to them for the space of twenty five years, that we may be prepared to go to the house of Israel.

The Gentiles in a great measure, have rejected it; we have borne a faithful testimony to the nations of the earth, and they prefer to take their own course, and act on their own agency; they would rather build themselves up than the kingdom of God. The consequence is, it will soon be taken from the Gentile nations, and it will not be long before the judgments of God are abroad among them, and those bitter branches will be taken off the tree.

Now there is no personage, or subject, or work upon the face of the whole earth, but what is more popular than the Lord, and His Gospel, and kingdom; His name is dishonoured and blasphemed, with impunity by nearly all the inhabitants of the earth and in the midst of every nation under heaven, but the day is nigh at hand when He will make bare His arm of power, and show the world that there is a God in Israel, who will no longer bear the blasphemies of the wicked without bringing them to judgment, but He will send forth those angels, those messengers who dwell in the presence of God, who are waiting with their sharp sickles in their hands to reap down the earth; but this will not be until the Gospel has been fully offered to the Gentiles; then the bitter branches will be broken off.

This kingdom will go forward, for the Lord God has decreed it, and Zion will arise and be adorned with beauty and power, and true refinement, in light and knowledge, and in every good gift that will prepare the minds of men for the Society of their Heavenly Father and of celestial beings. These lessons have got to be given, and we have got to learn them, and we have got to bring ourselves to the celestial law of God; we have to be quickened by the Spirit and power of the kingdom of God and its righteousness, that we may be prepared to carry out the purposes of the Lord; then this kingdom will be borne to the house of Israel, and they will receive it.

The door has already been unlocked to the Lamanites in these mountains, and they will begin to embrace the Gospel and the records of their fathers, and their chiefs will be filled with the Spirit and power of God, and they will rise up in their strength, and a nation will be born in a day, because they are of the seed of Abraham, and God has promised to bless the descendants of Abraham, and they will be saved with the house of Israel, for the Lord has spoken it, and made those promises unto them through their fathers.

Again, here are the ten tribes of Israel, we know nothing about them only what the Lord has said by His Prophets. There are Prophets among them, and by and by they will come along, and they will smite the rocks, and the mountains of ice will flow down at their presence, and a {{page break|232|top}} highway will be cast up before them, and they will come to Zion, receive their endowments, and be crowned under the hands of the children of Ephraim, and there are persons before me in this assembly to-day, who will assist to give them their endowments. They will receive their blessings and endowments, from under the children of Ephraim, who are the first fruits of the kingdom of God in this dispensation, and the men will have to be ordained and receive their Priesthood and endowments in the land of Zion, according to the revelations of God.

Again, here is Judah, which is the tribe of Israel, from whom Jesus sprang; how many times have I seen them among the nations of the earth, standing in their synagogues even greyhaired rabbies, with their faces to the east, calling on the great Eloheim to open the door for them to go back to Jerusalem, the land of their fathers, and to send their shiloh, their king of deliverance. When I have seen this my soul has been filled with a desire to proclaim unto them the word of God unto eternal life, but I knew I could not do this, the time had not come, I could not preach to them. I might have stood in their midst for a month and preached unto them Jesus Christ or their shiloh and king, but I should have failed to establish one particle of faith in their minds that he was the true Messiah.

They do not believe in Jesus Christ; there is an unbelief resting upon them, and will until they go home and rebuild Jerusalem and their temple more glorious than at the beginning, and then by and by, after this Church and kingdom has arisen up in its glory, the Saviour will come to them and show the wounds in his hands and side, and they will say to him, "Where did you get those wounds?" and he will answer, "In the house of my friends," and then their eyes will begin to open, and they will repent and mourn, they and their wives apart, and there will be a fountain opened for uncleanness to the house of Judah, and they will for the first time receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour, they will begin to comprehend where they have been wandering for the space of two thousand years.

You cannot convert a Jew, you may as well try to convert this house of solid walls as to convert them into the faith of Christ. They are set in their feelings, and they will be until the time of their redemption. They are looking forward to the time when they will go home and rebuild Jerusalem; they have looked for it many hundreds of years, they are looking for the coming of their king, and they do not suppose for a moment that he has already come, but they are looking for him to come as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, not as a lamb led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that is dumb before his shearers; they are looking for him to come with power and great glory.

I thank God that the day is at hand when the Jews will be restored. I have felt to pray for them; I feel interested in their behalf, for they are of the seed of Abraham and a branch of the house of Israel, and the promises of God still remain with them. It is true they fell through unbelief, and the kingdom was taken from them and given to the Gentiles, and when it came from them, it came clothed with all its gifts, powers, and glory, Priesthood and ordinances which were necessary for the salvation of men, and to prepare them to dwell in the presence of the Gods; and when the kingdom was given to the Gentiles, they for a while brought forth the natural fruits of the kingdom. But they, like the Jews, have fallen through the same example of unbelief, and now, in the last days, the kingdom of God has to be taken from the Gentiles, and restored back to every {{page break|233|top}} branch and tribe of the house of Israel; and when it is restored to them, it must go back with all its gifts, and blessings, and Priesthood which it possessed when it was taken from them. But the Lord has said that in restoring these blessings to the children of Abraham, that He would be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them. But from what branch or part of the house of Israel will the Lord look for this petition or request to issue, if not from the Latter-day Saints, for we are out of the tribe of Joseph through the loins of Ephraim, who have been as a mixed cake among the Gentiles, and are the first fruits of the kingdom, and the Lord has given unto us the kingdom and Priesthood and keys thereof. Hence the Lord will require us to ask for those blessings which are promised unto Israel, and to labour for their salvation.

These things will be required at our hands; a great work is before us, a work worthy of intelligent beings—worthy of the most noble of spirits that ever existed around the throne of God in time or in eternity, in heaven or on the earth. Then, if we would feel right about this important subject, and look upon it as it is, we will go to work and labour with all our mights to build up the kingdom of our God, to carry out the purposes of the Lord, in the building up of Zion, the establishment of his kingdom, and restoration, and salvation of the house of Israel; we should listen strictly to those men who are the word of the Lord to us.

The Prophet Jeremiah saw this kingdom established, and saw that Ephraim was the first born, and in gathering the children of Jacob and establishing Zion in the last days, their nobles should be of themselves, and their governor should proceed from the midst of them. I have looked forward for years by faith to that time when the children of Zion would have the privilege of having their rulers, and a governor of their own choice of the house of Israel, to rule over them and counsel and lead them.

We have had a governor since we have been a Territory, who is actually of the loins of Joseph, the son of Jacob. Jeremiah saw this, spake of it, and it has been fulfilled. There has been a great exertion to make this prophecy fail. It hurt the feelings of the Gentiles to think this prophecy should have its fulfilment in these days. It has been fulfilled so far, and I feel thankful to-day that all the prophecies which have not been fulfilled will be; hence I have hope and confidence in looking forward to the fulfilment of the blessings that are promised to us.

Let us be faithful and seek diligently to build up the kingdom of God in righteousness and do our duty, and try to save ourselves, our wives, and children, our kindred and our friends, and the house of Israel, and also the Gentiles as far as they will be saved, and then we will be satisfied with our reward which we shall obtain in this life and in the world to come. I pray the Lord to bless us all, and save us in His kingdom, for Christ's sake. Amen.

Journal of Discourses/26/23

2017-05-30T16:00:24Z

RKM:

{{header2
| title = [[../../]]
| author =
| noauthor= Erastus Snow
| section=[[../|Volume 26]], THE CREATION, MALE AND FEMALE—CALLING OF ENOCH AND NOAH—GOD SELECTED ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED TO BE A CHOSEN PEOPLE— HE COMMANDED HIS PEOPLE TO MULTIPLY BUT FORBADE ADULTERY AND WHOREDOM IN EVERY FORM—PLURAL MARRIAGE ENJOINED UPON ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED TO MAKE THEM A GREAT PEOPLE—THE PRINCIPLE OF LIFE AND ETERNAL INCREASE IS A SPIRITUAL POWER—MODERN CHRISTENDOM OPPOSED TO LARGE FAMILIES—LATTER-DAY SAINTS ENCOURAGE THEM—THE EDMUNDS LAW PASSED WITH THE PRETENCE OF REPRESSING IMMORALITY AMONG THE MORMONS—THAT MASK OF HYPOCRISY NOW THROWN OFF—THE RELIGIOUS SENTIMENT OF THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS THE REAL OBJECT OF PERSECUTION—CONCLUDING EXHORTATIONS
| previous=[[../22|The Speaker’s Pleasure in Again Meeting with the Saints, etc.]]
| next=[[../24|Ignorance of the World Regarding the Latter-day Saints, etc.]]
| notes=DISCOURSE BY APOSTLE ERASTUS SNOW, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Provo, Sunday Morning, May 31st, (Quarterly Conference) 1885. (REPORTED BY JOHN IRVINE.)
(Online document scan [http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/JournalOfDiscourses3&CISOPTR=9619&REC=19 ''Journal of Discourses'', Volume 26])
}}

{{page break|213|top}}
THE speaker commenced by reading from the 1st chapter of Genesis—from the 25th verse to the end of the chapter.

Proceeding, he said: In the writings of Moses we have an account of the creation of this earth and the inhabitants thereof, both man and beast and every living thing, as also vegetation. In the first verse we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

In attempting to communicate intelligence upon any theme, if we attempt to do it by using words and phrases, we are obliged to use such language as the hearers or readers are able to comprehend, and if the language be imperfect the ideas conveyed may be somewhat imperfect or defective, and if the understanding of the persons to whom this language is addressed is limited, and their use and understanding of language is limited, the information sought to be communicated to them will be correspondingly limited and defective. It is only by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost that we are able to see clearly the things of God; but the language employed by the writer of the Book of Genesis and by the translators of that work is perhaps sufficiently clear for our purpose at this time, though the inspired translation rendered by the Prophet Joseph Smith is somewhat clearer and more impressive than the present King James' translation. In the inspired translation by the Prophet Joseph Smith, it is written that in the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth; that the earth was empty and desolate, and God said unto His Only Begotten, let us do so and so; let us divide the light from the darkness; let us separate the waters and cause the {{page break|214|top}} dry land to appear; let there be lights in the firmament in the midst of the heavens to give light to the earth; let us create animals to walk upon the earth, and creeping things, and fowls to fly in the air and fish to swim in the waters, &c.; and let us make man in our own image and after our likeness—that is the Father addressing the Son, taking counsel together. This rendering of this first chapter of Genesis is sustained by the writings of the Apostle Paul, when he says: "For of Him"—speaking of the Only Begotten—"and through Him, and for Him, are all things." Again, it is written in the New Testament concerning the Savior, that He is "the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person." So that when the Father said unto His Son in the beginning, let us make man in our image and after our likeness, it conveys to us the idea that man was organized in the same form and general appearance of both the Father and the Son. This especially in relation to the man himself; for you will remark the wording of the text which we have read—"in the image of God created He him"—referring to Adam—"male and female created He them." You will perceive a difference in the language in regard to the creation of females.

Now, it is not said in so many words in the Scriptures, that we have a Mother in heaven as well as a Father. It is left for us to infer this from what we see and know of all living things in the earth including man. The male and female principle is united and both necessary to the accomplishment of the object of their being, and if this be not the case with our Father in heaven after whose image we are created, then it is an anomaly in nature. But to our minds the idea of a Father suggests that of a Mother: As one of our poets says:

"In the heavens are parents single?

No; the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason; truth eternal

Tells me, I've a Mother there."

Hence when it is said that God created our first parents in His likeness—"in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them"—it is intimated in language sufficiently plain to my understanding that the male and female principle was present with the Gods as it is with man. It needs only a common understanding of the organism of man and of all living creatures, and the functions of this organism to show the primary object of the Creator, and that is the multiplication of the species, the fulfillment of the commandment given, to multiply and replenish the earth, given to both man and beast. We need only to study the anatomy and construction of the human system, and to understand its powers and capabilities, to comprehend the object and purpose of the Creator, even though the commandment had not been written to multiply and replenish the earth. The ancients who feared God, and kept His commandments, showed that they understood this principle and were willing to obey it. It is written of the first fourteen generations, that each succeeding generation of them lived so many years and begat sons and daughters, and some of them lived well nigh on to a thousand years. They multiplied and increased in the land until wickedness overran the land and it pleased God to check the growth of wickedness by the flood, which swept the wicked off the earth. But before thus destroying the inhabitants of the earth, He caused the righteous to be gathered {{page break|215|top}} out from among the wicked by the preaching of the Gospel. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, was a powerful instrument in the hands of God, of rebuking the wickedness of the times. He taught righteousness, gathered the people together, and established a Zion. He labored we are told some 365 years, in the which he communed with God, and taught the people and sanctified his people, so that they were translated to heaven. Many others who remained upon the earth, who had accepted the Gospel, but were not sanctified and prepared to be caught up with Enoch and his people, sought diligently to follow; they purified themselves so that angels ministered unto them, and they were caught up unto Zion before the flood; even all who remained and kept the faith, except Noah and his sons and their families, who were especially called and chosen and detailed to build the ark and enter therein with a selection of the beasts of the earth and the fowls of the air, to preserve seed through the flood. Thus did the Lord gather a harvest of souls unto Himself, of those who believed and obeyed the Gospel and worked righteousness, while the wicked perished in the flood. Then again, the commandment of God to multiply and replenish the earth, was renewed to Noah and his posterity, and soon the desolate places became inhabited. But in the course of a few generations, blindness and darkness and ignorance again began to prevail; wickedness began to raise its head among the children of Noah, and it became necessary that the Lord should select from among the children of Noah the better and nobler seed with whom He would establish His covenant, and upon whom He would confer the keys of the Priesthood, and from among them should be raised up Prophets and Seers and Revelators to teach the people of the nations of the earth, as the oracles of God. These chosen people were Abraham and his seed. Of Abraham it is written that God called him from his father's house when he dwelt in Ur of the Chaldees, and commanded him to go out from his father's house because his father was given to the ways of the heathen and to the idolatry of the surrounding peoples. He called him to go to another land where he should be separate from the traditions and teachings of his father, and where he would make of him a great nation, and raise up from his seed a holy people. God appeared unto him in Canaan, whither He led him, and swore by Himself—because He could swear by no greater—that in blessing He would bless him, and in multiplying He would multiply him; that his seed should be as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is upon the sea shore for multitude. He renewed this promise to his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob, who was also named Israel, and from them sprang the house of Israel, and also the children of Arabia, the sons of Ishmael, and the chief tribes of central Asia. It was the seed of Abraham that dwelt in Egypt who were brought into bondage to the Egyptians, and subsequently delivered by the hand of Moses, after wandering forty years in the wilderness, in the land of Canaan. It was from among this people that God raised up prophets from generation to generation to whom He revealed His mind and will. It was this people that was commanded to build first the tabernacle journeying in the wilderness—a sort of moveable temple and subsequently a temple in the land of promise when {{page break|216|top}} they should become settled and located there. It was among this people the Savior was born, and labored and taught the Gospel, and was crucified, and rose again from the dead. It was from among this people that He (the Savior) selected and ordained His Apostles to preach the Gospel to all the world. The whole tenor of the Scriptures shows us that those who believed God and were counted His people multiplied and replenished the earth and became numerous as the stars in the heavens and as the sands upon the sea shore for multitude, while many of the other unbelieving nations and peoples comparatively dwindled away; and when the history of the generations of Adam shall be revealed and comprehended by the human race, it will be found that in the providence of God He has greatly restricted the more corrupt, while He has enlarged and multiplied the seed of Abraham, who did abide in the covenant; and although many of them have come short in many things and have wandered in darkness and unbelief, yet as a people they have maintained a degree of sexual purity unknown in the gentile world, and for this reason has God multiplied them in the land. They have great and special promises that in the latter days God would remember them.

Now, while God commanded His people to multiply and replenish the earth, He gave strict laws against promiscuous sexual intercourse. "He forbade adultery, fornication, whoredom in every form, and the same doctrine was taught by Paul, the Apostle, namely, "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." This law prevailed in all ages among the people of God, encouraging honorable wedlock, and restraining illicit sexual intercourse, and there are many physical as well as theological reasons for this law. It is especially binding upon mankind, because they are organized after the image of God, and are His offspring. I refer now to the spirit; for we understand that man in the nobler sense and the true sense, is that immortal eternal being which has come forth from God, and that the earthly tabernacle is but an outer clothing of that immortal being; that the earthly tabernacle is in the image and likeness of the heavenly or eternal being; in other words the body is in the likeness and form of the soul or the spirit, and that it is made conformable to any for the spirit to dwell in, and to fill every portion and particle thereof, and to direct its energies and powers to develop its capabilities and to guide its actions. Hence that immortal man is held responsible for the deeds of the body, and it is written he shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body; because the body does not control the spirit, but the spirit controls the body. Still the Apostle Paul says that there is a law of the flesh—that wars against the spirit; and, says Paul, "to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." He further says that this law of the flesh—that is, in our members and the lusts thereof—that wars against the law of the spirit brings our bodies into bondage, even the bondage of sin; but it is made the duty of the spirit to subdue the flesh and the lusts and the desires thereof, and to bring it into subjection to the law of the spirit. This is the warfare and the struggle of our lives. This begins with the development {{page break|217|top}} of our physical power and the lusts and desires of the flesh. The spirit of man is capable of receiving from the Spirit of our Father the Holy Spirit, which is in connection with the Father and the Son, and is a minister of God unto men; which lighteth up our minds and giveth us understanding; for "the spirit of man is the candle of the Lord," says one of old. This teaches us just as far as we will give heed to it, how to walk in obedience to the law of God, and how to resist and overcome evil with good, and as far as the written word of God is given to us, its object and influence upon us is to restrain the flesh and bring it into subjection to the spirit. The lusts and desires of the flesh are not of themselves unmitigated evils. On the contrary they are implanted in us as a stimulus to noble deeds, rather than low and beastly deeds. These affections and loves that are planted in us are the nobler qualities that emanate from God. They stimulate us to the performance of our duties; to multiplying and replenishing the earth to assume the responsibilities of families, and rear them up for God. They encourage and stimulate the woman to bear her burden and perform the duties of life because of the hope of a glorious future, while it stimulates the husband and father in like manner. Every instinct in us is for a wise purpose in God when properly regulated and restrained, and guided by the Holy Spirit and kept within its proper legitimate bounds. But all these instincts and desires of the flesh are susceptible of perversion, and when perverted result in sin. Whenever the Gospel has been preached on earth, and Prophets and holy men have been sent among the people, the burden of their lives has been to encourage them to the proper exercise of their powers and functions and to regulate them and restrain them within proper limits, such as are prescribed in the written law, and in the law of our being. Excesses of all kinds tend to death and to sickness and misery, physically and spiritually; while temperance and moderation and the proper use of all our functions tends to the glory of God and the welfare of His children. The chief study of man is to comprehend these principles, and to apply them in their lives.

I said there was a time after the flood that the seed of Noah began to corrupt their ways, and God chose out from among them the seed of Abraham, with whom He established His covenant that He might preserve unto himself the Priesthood and its ordinances, and a people who would receive His law, and among whom He would raise up Prophets, and through whom He would send His Son in the meridian of time to become the Savior and Redeemer of the world. Thus Abraham was blessed of the Lord to multiply and increase in the earth greatly. When the Lord determined to bless and multiply Abraham and His seed, He commanded that they should take of the daughters of Eve for wives and multiply and increase in the land. I do not say that plural marriage was not practiced prior to this time, but I say from and after Abraham it was enjoined upon Israel, the seed of Abraham, for a wise and glorious purpose in Him, namely, that of increasing them and giving them the ascendency among the nations of the earth, as I once heard the Prophet Joseph remark. In speaking of these things, and inquiring wherefore God had enjoined plural marriage {{page break|218|top}} upon Abraham and his seed, his answer was, because He had purposed to multiply and increase them in the land and make of them a great people and give them the ascendency over other peoples of the earth, and that because, as he said of Abraham, He knew that He would serve Him and command his seed after Him.

We are aware that in modern Christendom there are some people who forbid to marry. In one of the Epistles of Paul [1 Timothy iv. 3|top}} he states that in the latter times there would be those who would forbid to marry. We know there are some professing Christians who regard the union of the sexes as an evil, as a sin, as the result of our fallen natures, and as a form of the gratification of fleshly lusts which is offensive before God. Hence we have the Shakers who, acting upon this doctrine, abstain from marriage. If all were to embrace their faith, and carried it out in their lives, the human race would soon be extinct, and the great purpose of Jehovah in their creation would seem to have failed. But fortunately those who embrace this faith, and exemplify it in their lives, are few. Yet there are many who are willing to gratify the lusts of the flesh but strive to avoid its consequences and responsibilities. But those who have received in good faith the commandment of God to multiply and replenish the earth and assume the proper responsibilities of the household, and regulate their lives and household by the law of the Lord, have always been blessed and favored of God, and the great difference between the Latter-day Saints at the present time and modern Christendom, is this more extensive comprehension of this first law of God to man. We understand there is a purpose in all these things; that the Supreme Being is working with an object in view and for the accomplishment of an end, and that object and end is worthy of the God who has created us; that in infinite space He may cause to be organized innumerable worlds and glorious orbs to be filled with intelligent beings capable of enlargement, of an expansion of glory and of happiness; for in their enlargement and increase He is glorified, while they in turn are glorified in and through Him in the performance of their labors and duties and the multiplying and increasing of their species, inasmuch as they do it unto the Lord and keep His law, so that they can be sanctified before Him and be endowed with the power of endless lives.

I know it is supposed by some that the power of increase is inherent in us and in all living things, and in all plants, but I do not view it in that light. I view the temporal organism as the instrument and not the creator itself; it is only the instrument by which it is worked out and accomplished; that the principle of life and eternal increase pertains not to the flesh nor to the grosser elements of this earth, but it is the spiritual power that has emanated from a nobler sphere that has come out from God, or that had its existence previously in a first estate. Our Savior Himself is an example of this. We are told He was born of the Virgin Mary, in the meridian of time. Yet we learn He was with the Father from the beginning and was with Him in the morning of creation. While he was here upon the earth 1800 years ago, He said to the Jews, "You speak of Abraham as your father. Verily I say unto you before Abraham was, I am." And again in John's revelations it is written that He was as a lamb {{page break|219|top}} slain from the foundation of the world. He is called a lamb of God typically speaking, because the offering of a lamb in sacrifice upon the altar was a type of the crucifixion of the Savior, and the commandment of God given to the children of men in the beginning to build an altar and offer sacrifice with a lamb upon it, was typical of the Savior of the world. Hence came the term that He was the Lamb of God which the Father sent unto the world to be an offering for sin. So also it is written in the Scriptures—speaking of God—that He is the Father of our spirits, and, says Paul, it is necessary to be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live.

In modern Christendom—in these United States especially, and in staid New England more than perhaps any other portion of this American continent—is this commandment of God to multiply and replenish the earth nul[l]ified. the Latter-day Saints are looked upon with envy, with jealousy and reproach because they do not take the same view as they do, and their numerous families stand out in bold contrast with the New England families, where you will find as you go through the land one, two, or at most three children in a family, and many families with none. In some instances this apparent sterility may have resulted from various abuses, but in most causes the result of devices of wicked men and women to counteract and prevent the fulfilling of the great commandment of God to multiply and replenish the earth, and in many instances, foetecide, infanticide and child-murder are the result of this very general desire to avoid the responsibility of families. It has become a crying evil in the land. Some writers deeply deplore this crying evil, and represent it in its true light; while many other writers and speakers are either silent upon the subject or give their voice and influence in its favor. A few years ago I remembered to have read a discourse of Brooklyn's great orator, Henry Ward Beecher, in which he took the ground that any considerable increase of the human species would be a positive evil, something to be deplored; and he elaborately attempted to portray the evils that would result from it, and the whole tendency of the discourse was to discourage the multiplication of the human species. Others have followed in the same train of reasoning. They seem to have forgotten the commandment given to our first parents, and never to have comprehended the purposes of Jehovah. Those who adopt these views have seemed to imagine that there would be greater happiness in the gratification of fleshly lusts, and in pandering to pride and worldly pleasures, and the increase of wealth, than to obey the commandment of God. They have resolved to avoid raising large families. The last tour I took through New England, (which is my native country), about twelve years ago, I was more deeply impressed with this state of things than I had ever been before. When I was a boy, in Vermont, I knew not the ways of the world, and comprehended not what was going on, in our large cities and more populous parts of the country. I was born of honest parentage, who reverenced the principles of life and salvation, and I understood not what was going on around me, nor do I think those evils existed there to the same extent that they now do. But as I remarked, when I made my last tour through New England, I was more forcibly impressed with this state of society than ever before. I spoke of it to {{page break|220|top}} my aged aunt in Rhode Island. I said to her: "Aunt, when you were young, and when my mother was young, rearing large families, it was a source of joy and pleasure to rear offspring. Now as I go through the land, I see the efforts of the people are in an opposite direction. "Oh, yes," said she, "it is unpopular now, for people to have large families; it is considered vulgar, men and women now seek to avoid these responsibilities." This is a well known fact. The tendency of the age is to animalism, to the gratification of fleshly lusts and worldly pleasures.

Well, the Latter-day Saints have experienced in their own lives something nobler, and have learned to recognize the wisdom of Jehovah in that order of things which He enjoined upon our first parents. This is the marked difference between the unbelieving world and the Latter-day Saints. I say the unbelieving world, because I regard this doctrine which I have referred to as a doctrine of devils and not the doctrine of Christ; that the tendency of it leads, as I before remarked, to foeticide, infanticide, child murder, and to the gratification of fleshly lusts and worldly pleasure without fulfilling the great object and purposes of our Father, and the effect in the end would be the wasting away of the human species if it were generally adopted. It is high time that a voice from heaven should rebuke it. It is high time that the Lord, who wishes to raise up seed unto Himself, should command His people and renew upon them the obligations placed upon our first parents. It is to the Latter day Saints that this mission has been committed, and the result is the multitude of school children that we find all over this Territory. Over fifty thousand Sabbath school children in the Territory of Utah—nearly one-third of the entire population, as shown in our statistics at our various Conferences—are children under eight years of age. This is a startling fact to that class of the Christian world who are pursuing the opposite course. One of the Sabbath school superintendents of the City of New York, recently expressed himself very pointedly and plainly upon this subject in relation to the wealthy portion of the church-going people of New York. In several thousand families attending the popular churches of New York, there could be mustered only about eighty Sabbath school children, and he attributed it to this prevailing desire for pleasure, wealth, and the shirking of the cares and responsibilities of the household, until the rearing of families was left almost entirely to the poor, to what is termed the vulgar people.

I need not harrow up the feelings of the people with lengthy details such as are found in police reports and statistics from various sources, showing the alarming increase of these crying evils. Suffice it to say that the chief warfare against the Latter-day Saints at the present time is an endeavor to compel us to conform to their new state of things, or to their ideas of social sins and social duties. In other words it is laconically expressed by President Cleveland in the late interview he had with our delegates that were sent to him with the memorial and protest adopted by the Latter-day Saints in mass meeting a few weeks ago. President Cleveland listened with courtesy to what our delegation had to say with regard to the feeling and desires of the people, and expressed himself in this wise: that he would endeavor as far as lay in his power {{page break|221|top}} to give us honest men to administer the law, and he concluded with a smile upon his countenance, with this expression: "I wish you people out there could be like the rest of us." This is a homely phrase, it might not attract any special attention under ordinary circumstances; but when we consider the facts as they exist, and the tendency of the age, and of the Christian world at the present time, and the state of things in the east when compared with us, the remark is very significant. It comes home to us, and we ask ourselves, can we, after the light that we have received, after the experience that we have had, and with the hopes that are placed before us in the Gospel of a glorious future—can we relapse back into that state of things and be like unto them? I would not say aught personal in relation to Mr. Cleveland, believing him to be an honorable man of the world, yet his enemies in the campaign accused him of some irregularities of life that are common in the world, and it is reported that he knows something of sexual relationship, though he has not assumed the responsibility of a family and household; and in this respect, though perhaps among the most honorable, he represents a large and respectable portion of unmarried men. We do not understand that in thus expressing himself to our delegates that he desired us to exactly imitate himself, but that he wished we could confine ourselves at least to one wife. If however, the parallel were carried out more fully, we would not only confine ourselves to one wife as far as owning them in that capacity is concerned, but we would try like others have, to limit our children also and imitate the other vices of the age.

Well, now, the expounders of the federal laws in our midst—the Prosecuting Attorneys, Judges, Marshals, and other federal representatives that have been sent among us to enforce the special laws that have been passed by Congress against the Latter-day Saints, seem to make the line of distinction more marked than has ever before been done. During the great furore which swept over the land four years ago, which resulted in the passage of the Edmunds law, the Christian ministers urged their congregations to send memorials to Congress for the passage of that law on the ground of repressing immorality, licentiousness and crime among the Mormons, and it was this hypocritical mask which they took on at that time that hood-winked and deceived the great body of the people and lashed the country into a furore and crowded Congressmen to vote for the unconstitutional measure, that wicked and malicious law known as the Edmunds law. I may be accused of treason for speaking in this way, in calling this a wicked and malicious law. I may be counted guilty of treason because I dare to think; but yet, treason has never been defined by the Constitution of our country nor the Courts, to consist in a freedom of speech, much less in the freedom of thought, but has been defined as levying of war against the Government, or aiding and abetting its enemies in time of war.

The great furore in the Christian world, or at least throughout the Christian denominations of America four years ago, urging upon Congress the passage of the Edmunds law, was on the ground of the immorality and licentiousness of the Mormons, and a desire to repress it. But now the federal representatives in their efforts to enforce it in our country,{{page break|222|top}} have found themselves under the necessity of throwing the mask off themselves and off the country—off the priests and religious people. I believe some of you in Provo had something to do in bringing this • about and rendering it necessary for them to lay off the mask. I believe Commissioner Smoot was called upon to investigate a case of an outsider seducing his wife's sister, and a child was the result; and he felt called upon under the law to hold him to answer before the grand jury for unlawful cohabitation. The assistant prosecuting attorney unwillingly allowed the thing to go on until the man was committed for this offense; intimating at the same time that he thought this was pushing the Edmunds law a little too far and beyond what was the spirit and intent of the law. If this case should be carried to its legitimate end, and the man should be sent to prison and fined for unlawful cohabitation, then the door would be thrown wide open for many others to follow for the same offense. Hence such a construction was considered an element of danger to themselves, to the representatives of the federal government and their aiders and abettors in this country; that such a construction of the Edmunds law as had been the popular construction and the understanding of the masses, and as was the professed understanding of the Christian world—for they urged its passage to repress immorality and sexual crime—that if this construction was allowed to prevail in Utah and the surrounding Territories, and the District of Columbia, and other places where the United States exercise jurisdiction, it would operate very hard on a great many who would not be so well prepared to bear it as the Latter-day Saints. Hence it seemed very, desirable that their feet should be slipped out of the trap and ours left in. Accordingly their wits were brought to bear in this direction, and on the occasion of the trial of President Angus M. Cannon on the charge of unlawful cohabitation a plan was concocted and carried out, with all the leading attorneys of the land and the Chief Justice upon the bench, to discuss this question and decide upon it. In this connection the representative of the government boldly came to the front and threw off the mask and proclaimed at the outset of this trial that he knew he could not prove sexual intercourse between the parties at bar, and that he should not attempt it. Furthermore he stated that he did not consider sexual intercourse any element of crime; that the Edmunds law, so called, was a blow aimed at the status of the Mormon system of marriage alone, and that the third section of that law relating to unlawful cohabitation had no reference to sexual sins; that it was not designed to repress adultery, fornication, lust, or any form of sexual sin; that that was left to local legislation; that the legislation of Congress in the third section of the Edmunds law, as well as all other legislation upon that subject was aimed directly at the status of the marriage alone. In this regard, therefore, he took precisely the ground that Governor Murray did when he first issued his oath for notaries public, and which was afterwards adopted by the board of Utah Commissioners and incorporated in their test oath for registration, referring to cohabitation with more than one woman in the marriage relation. Mr. Dickson took this view, that Murray was right; that the Utah Commissioners were right; that this was the sense of the country; that this was the {{page break|223|top}} design of Congress; that the Edmunds law was a blow aimed at the Mormon system of marriage, or to use Judge Zane's term, the habit and repute of marriage, or the "holding out," to use another favorite phrase, of two or more women as wives of one husband—that the whole and only object of the third section of the Edmunds law relating to unlawful cohabitation, as well as all other anti-polygamy acts of Congress was against the institution of marriage. Finding, however, it difficult to prove marriages because of the disinclination of people to testify, aud [and] because of the difficulty of reaching any record evidence of these marriages, it was thought necessary to take high grounds and assume this: that the Mormons are known to be a virtuous people, are known to condemn in strong terms and by every influence in their power every form of sexual sin, and that they do not indulge in intercourse with the sexes to any extent only in the marriage relation. This was the well known and established character of the Mormon people, and was the result of their teachings and practice for a generation past. Hence wherever children were found in Mormon families, they are the result of marriage. If a woman is found pregnant, she must be looked upon as a wife, and the officers are justified in se[i]zing her and bringing her before a commissioner, or a jury or judge, and compelling her to give the name of the father of her child, and that is deemed sufficient proof that he is guilty of polygamy, or if two or more women live in close proximity to a man, and he is seen visiting them, and especially if the children call him father, it is sufficient proof on which the jury may indict for polygamy or unlawful cohabitation, as the case may be. Consequently they have taken this high ground that it is no longer necessary to prove even the first or second marriage, nor is it any longer necessary to prove sexual intercourse in order to establish unlawful cohabitation, but the common habit and repute of marriage and the appearance of marriage is all sufficient. Thus the ordinary rules of evidence are set aside, and the mask of hypocrisy which governed the Christian world when they were urging the passage of this Edmunds law through Congress is thrown aside. A bold and important testimony is given to the world through our persecutors to the morality of the Mormon people being so far in excess of the rest of the world of mankind, and to our integrity to the marriage relation. We wish indeed that all that is said in this respect were strictly true, that there were no irregularities among us. We cannot quite say that, but we do rejoice and thank God for the general good testimony which has been given of us in truth in this behalf. Not long since President Smoot and myself and some others were congratulating ourselves, and President Taylor was congratulating himself, and many others of our aged fathers, in having placed themselves in a condition to escape the operation of the third section of the Edmunds law by confining themselves to one woman. I said to some of my brethren in a Priesthood meeting in St. George, one time when they were very badly agitated and not knowing whom the lightning—or the Edmunds act would strike next—I said to them, you old grey-headed men whose wives have grown old with you and are past bearing children, if you choose now to agree among yourselves that you will live within the third section of the Edmunds law {{page break|224|top}} and allow the husband and father to confine himself to one wife, while he cares for the balance and cares for and protects his children, I see not but what you may do this with honor to yourselves and without sacrificing any principles of the law of God, or going back upon your covenants, providing this be agreeable among yourselves. I was somewhat with others, congratulating myself in being able to do this without sacrificing any special principle or going back on our families, but it would seem that these noble, aged sires in Israel were not to be let out quite so easily as this, for I am a little inclined to feel it was a little dishonorable, and yet perhaps not altogether before God. The idea was that they might possibly escape, while their sons and others who might have taken wives and raised families, and entered into those sacred relations which are to them dearer than life itself, would have to abide the consequences. But it seems that under Judge Zane's ruling it is not these who are raising families that are always liable; for you may raise a family by your sister-in-law, if you don't call her your wife, as you understand from the case I have referred to. No sooner had Judge Zane sustained Prosecuting Attorney Dickson's view of the case, than this Mr. Aimes was brought before him on habeas corpus and discharged, and he (the Judge) fully announced the doctrine that a man could have as many children by sister-in-laws as he pleased; that no matter how much a man might seduce his neighbor's wife, or neighbor's daughter, if he is not in the marriage relation with them, it is no offense against the Edmunds law. But with a Mormon, whether he is raising a family or not, if he is even so unfortunate as to have no children, or if his wives are past bearing children, and he has entirely separated himself so far as bed is concerned, and there is evidence of entire restraint on his part, still, unless he goes back on himself and on his wives and children, he comes under the law. In other words, if he continues to "hold them out" as wives he is guilty of cohabitation. Hence, Brother Smoot and myself, and others, have been congratulating ourselves a little too soon. You will find that the old men and the young men are all coupled together, their feet still in the trap, while the adulterer, fornicator, whoremonger, harlot and libertine, the trap is open just enough to let their feet out. Now they can vote, they can hold office, they can raise children providing they do not do it in the marriage relation, and they hold out this inducement to you and me: "Become like one of us." "I wish you out there could be like the rest of us." "I wish you would only disown your wives, then do what you will you are secure—that is, you must only own one wife, for this is the popular idea, the sentiment of the age. This is the voice of fifty millions of people. You must listen to it. Congress has said it. If you hesitate, (some go so far as to say) you will be held to answer for treason. Treason against what? Treason against the law. Well, then, of course every thief is guilty of treason. Every man that steals an axe handle shall be tried for treason because he disobeys the law, by the same parity of reasoning. Again, if you try to avoid the law and we can catch you, why you are doing a terribly wicked thing. Yes; if spotters are hunting down some luckless fellow or his wife, and they slip out at the back door, or hide in a haystack, why, {{page break|225|top}} you must be held for treason, or some other crime. Now, I have always understood that catching goes before hanging; that it is the duty of the officers to make arrests when indictments are found; and it is equally understood that there is a guarantee in the Constitution of the United States that no man shall be held to answer for any crime except on presentment of an indictment by a grand jury. Furthermore, when indictments are found, the parties against whom they are found are known only to the jury and public prosecutor; the general public are not supposed to know anything about them, and the general maxim of law is that everybody is innocent until they are proven guilty. Consequently, we are not supposed to know that when anybody is going out to the haystack that they are fleeing from an officer, or that every tramp that comes along is a deputy marshal, or if he is that he has a warrant in his pocket for that man, and if he has it is his business to catch him and not ours. Does not the law forbid you to aid in the escape of a criminal? Yes, if he has been found a criminal by a competent jury and under sentence of the law. Then it is public notice to you that he is a criminal, but not otherwise. I merely make mention of this because of the foolish threats that are sometimes made to terrify ignorant people. Because it is well known the world over, so far as anything is known of us, and of the legislation of Congress against us as a religious people, that there is an issue between Congress and the Latter-day Saints, and that issue is of a religious character and relating to the social relations of the Latter-day Saints. The views which we hold are founded upon the revelations of God, both ancient and modern. We have given evidence to the world of our sincerity in this, and yet the world do not seem to accept it. I believe that Mr. Dickson was honest enough to express his conviction of our sincerity in this, and that the Mormon people, as a people, were moral people, and that their teachings and actions showed that they did not indulge in these sexual sins outside of the marriage relation to any great extent; while the great mass of mankind who know us not are not willing to give us this credit. They have raised the hue and cry all over the land for so many years, that we were guilty of gross immorality, that it seems as if the Lord intended in the way now being done to give the world ocular demonstration and a strong testimony of the integrity of this people, of the sincerity of their actions, of the depth and strength of their faith, and their devotion to their religious convictions, and their integrity in carrying them out. It is a source of gratification and thanksgiving that but few, comparatively speaking, among us have felt to go back on themselves and to throw off allegiance to God and to their families and friends, and to violate their consciences; but few have been found to do this in order to escape fine and imprisonment. How far it will become necessary that this testimony should go forth to the world, and how many should suffer so that their testimony should go abroad to mankind to convince the world and to vindicate God and His people, I am not yet able to say, for I am persuaded it will be as the Lord will; that whatsoever is necessary we must submit to with the best grace possible. I do not mean to say that every one who may be thought to come under the third section of the Edmunds law shall {{page break|226|top}} go and complain on himself, or if complained of by some spotter that he shall go straitway and confess guilt, or if arraigned for trial on an indictment, that he shall plead guilty without a trial; I do not say this. Every man must be left to choose for himself what course he will pursue in relation to those matters; for pleading guilty or not guilty when arraigned before the Court is a mere technical form and a liberty which every prisoner enjoys, that of pleading guilty or not guilty. The plea of guilty, of course, saves the expense of a trial, while a plea of not guilty, means that the prosecutor must prove the charge made in the indictment. I do not say, therefore, that in submitting as best we can to the operation of the law that we shall not avail ourselves of constitutional privileges and the rights accorded to us. We have the right to be tried by a jury of our peers if we can get one, but we cannot get one under this act. The act was purposely framed to cut off that right. The right of a man to be tried by a jury of his peers—this term originated in Great Britain and was guaranteed in the Magna Charta—means simply a jury of his equals. If a man belonged to the nobility of the land, he was entitled to be tried by a jury of his equals. If he was a plebeian, a common laborer in the humble walks of life, he was entitled to a jury of his equals, his associates, neighbors, those that knew him best and were able to sympathize with him and comprehend his position and circumstances and the motives governing his acts, so that a righteous judgment might be rendered concerning him. This guarantee was incorporated in the American Constitution. The right of a man to be tried by a jury of his peers implied all that was necessary to protect the citizens against malicious prosecutions; but in our special case, under the operation of special laws enacted against the Latter-day Saints, we are compelled to go to trial before a jury of our avowed enemies; indeed, none are qualified to sit upon juries in our case unless they are pronounced against us; because, as I said before, it is not a sexual crime that is on trial; it is a religious sentiment of the Mormon people; it is this status of their social relations founded upon their religious convictions that is on trial. Hence it is the pronounced opposition to our convictions that is a qualification for a juryman in our case.

Well, we were told by the Prophet Joseph Smith, that the United States Government and people would come to this: that they would undermine one principle of the Constitution after another, until its whole fabric would be torn away, and that it would become the duty of the Latter-day Saints and those in sympathy with them to rescue it from destruction, and to maintain and sustain the principles of human freedom for which our fathers fought and bled. We look for these things to come in quick succession. When I first heard of the—what shall I call it? the somersault of Judge Zane and Prosecuting Attorney Dickson, the question was asked, Now that the mask is thrown off, how will this take throughout the country? Will the hireling priests throughout the land sustain this action? Will they consent to have this hypocritical mask thrown off then, and will the Supreme Court of the United States and the people of the United States sustain the ruling? I unhesitatingly answer, yes, they will, and if ever it reaches the Supreme Court of the United States, they will sustain it; {{page break|227|top}} the hypocritical hireling priests will sustain it; the people will sustain it and say, "Crucify them, crucify them, they have no friends."

It becomes us, then, to be better Saints, does it not? Yes. It becomes us to be more united than we have ever been before. It becomes us to put away our foolishness; to cease all sin; to observe the words of wisdom; to walk in all humility before God; to be faithful and earnest in our prayers, and to imitate good old Daniel. Never mind the lion's den nor the murderer's Pen, but so live that we can be counted worthy before God, and whatsoever He has designed should come upon us that we may have grace given unto us according to our day, and that the world may record of us in future generations that we were an honest and a noble race, true to our God and to our convictions, and worthy of the high calling of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We should not blame one another for not going to the Penitentiary. We should not find fault with President Taylor, or President Cannon, or President Woodruff, because they do not rush into the Penitentiary, or go into court and plead guilty, and at once go to prison. Nor need we until the Lord requires it, rise up and say, "build a new Penitentiary and let us all go in together." We are not required to do this, but may claim our rights under the law. We may leave the Government officials to do their duty, and if they will honestly and rightly act according to the rules of evidence within their prescribed jurisdiction, it will take them some time to get us all into the Penitentiary, because under the law we can insist upon a trial and upon a jury. Judge Howard was reported to have said that it took very little law and less evidence to convict a Mormon in Arizona. Nevertheless there are certain forms that they have to go through, all of which takes a certain length of time, and a certain amount of labor on the part of the Prosecuting Attorney, and if he gets but $40 for each indictment, give him the privilege of drawing up the indictment and proving the charge therein. Amen.

Atheism

2017-05-26T19:26:54Z

RKM:

Atheism

2017-05-26T19:25:18Z

RKM:

Myths about the Church

2017-05-26T19:19:02Z

RKM:

2017-05-26T18:58:52Z

RKM:

Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

2017-05-26T18:58:38Z

RKM:

{{Articles FAIR copyright}} {{Articles Header 1}} {{Articles Header 2}} {{Articles Header 3}} {{Articles Header 4}} {{Articles Header 5}} {{Articles Header 6}} {{Articles Header 7}} {{Articles Header 8}} {{Articles Header 9}} {{Articles Header 10}}
{{Resource Title|A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink.com''}}
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun. <br><br>—MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread [http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,423418,423816 Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?], ''Recovery from Mormonism'', posted Feb. 20, 2012.</ref>
}}
[[File:Mormonthink supporter at april 2014 general conference.jpg|thumb|400px|center|A MormonThink.com supporter displays a sign during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference]]

{{parabreak}}
{{ChartMormonThinkSummary}}
==Overview==


The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church—they did ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

==The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below==
===The Book of Mormon===
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at the same table with the plates in full view of both of them"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "he only said that he did it by the 'gift and power of God'"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Was Joseph Smith not a money digger? Yes, but it was not a very profitable job for him"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "In March 1826, the twenty-year-old Joseph Smith was arrested and brought before South Bainbridge justice of the peace"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Joseph never found any treasure for the men that hired him to find treasure using his seer stones"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "there is evidence that he found the plates using a seer stone"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "It is troublesome that a common stone found some 24 feet beneath the ground on Mr. Chase's property had the exact same seering ability as the sacred Urim and Thummim"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "Why doesn't the Church openly talk about this stone today?"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "why did Joseph say they were only for beginners?"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable'"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "it would make the whole story sound unbelievable"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "That is Peterson's attempt to make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Problems
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "pictographic and literary evidence of horses in the New World (outside of the Book of Mormon) is unknown"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "that the horses described in the BOM were really deer or tapirs is absolutely ridiculous"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "why they would let this most useful of all animals disappear and leave absolutely no trace of its existence"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Solomon Spalding, in his fictional piece Manuscript Story, mentions horses in connection with the inhabitants of the New World"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "The Church added the word coins starting in 1920 to the chapter summaries in order to clarify what the text of the chapter was about"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "The Book of Mormon explicitly states that the "Liahona", was a DIRECTOR"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "The FAIR apologists are the same people that make "horse" mean "tapir" and "steel" somehow they make into wooden clubs"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "LDS apologists will search and search until they find someone that will support their claims"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "scientists agree that elephants did not exist in the Americas"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "every soil coring taken in Central America should show traces of wheat, barley, and flax pollen"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "all of these animals and plants existed in abundance in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites lived as they were brought there by Lehi and his family"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "Archaeology says that wheels were not used for travel in Pre-Columbian America"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "If the Lamanites, Nephites or any other peoples used the wheel for any length of time, they would not have simply abandoned its use for any reason"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "there appears to be no existing archeological evidence which directly supports the Book of Mormon"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "Some have even gone so far as to suggest that the entire Book of Mormon narrative occurred within a very limited geographical location"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "reports circulated in LDS culture that the Book of Mormon was being used by the Smithsonian to guide primary archaeological research"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "it should be fairly easy to locate a temple 'like unto the temple of Solomon'"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "the account of Thomas Stuart Ferguson...His efforts and the efforts of his foundation ended in failure"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "The Nahom case provides evidence...of the willingness of LDS scholars to look anywhere in their despair to find a shred of validation"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "Both books were fifty miles away from where the translation was being done"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "If opponents of the Church really had the lost 116 pages as Joseph claimed, they would have resurfaced in some form"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "If, however, Joseph created it himself, his memory would hardly be adequate to such a task"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "It is convenient that the prophets of old just happened to make an extra set of plates 1500 years ago to cover this contingency"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "what are the odds that either one of the evil men trying to bring down Joseph was either a master forger or had access to a master forger?"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "the whole attempt would have been one of the weakest arguments against the church - hardly Satan's master plan"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "FAIR didn't even attempt to explain about the 'evil men'"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "In reality, the lost 116 pages were never produced"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "To believe this, you must accept that God is so impatient he's bothered by someone asking the same question repeatedly"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "So put the lame 116-page explanation together with the nonsensical translation of plate"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "We find it hard to believe that Satan and some wicked men were really behind the plot to steal the 116 pages"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "it seems much more plausible that Martin Harris' wife had immediately destroyed the pages just to defy her husband"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "Joseph appears to have falsified canonized scripture"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called 'All About the Mormons'"
}}

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FairMormon note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)
|sublink1=Response to claim: "the "most correct of any book on earth" has undergone more than 3,000 textual and grammatical corrections."
|sublink2=Response to claim: "when the BOM was first published, he tried to sell the copyright to the BOM to a publishing company"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "the first edition of the BOM has on its title page the author listed as Joseph Smith"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "This wasn't a family of illiterates. Education was important to the Smith family"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Joseph was known for story-telling"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Roberts...concluded that Joseph Smith had sufficient imagination"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Joseph simply incorporated this dream experience, that had such an impact on his father, into the BOM"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "Many parts of the BOM are identical to the Bible....Plagiarism is not difficult for anyone to do"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "The King James version of The Holy Bible has some translation problems...the BOM has these same errors"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "Some LDS apologists admit that Joseph must have used the King James Bible when bringing forth the Book of Mormon"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "if the sermon on the mount was not translated correctly in the Bible, why then, is it the same incorrect translation in the BOM?"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "View of the Hebrews was a very popular book published in New England in 1823"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "There was a reference to View of the Hebrews within Joseph Smith's lifetime"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "Early American Influences in the Book of Mormon stands in direct contradiction to the testimonies of witnesses to Joseph Smith's translation process"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith may simply have had help from someone else to write the Book of Mormon"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "The Spalding theory often does not get much attention...We think that the Tanners and Fawn Brodie did a disservice to the theory"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "Dale Broadhurst has amassed a collection of various 1800s newspaper articles that report many accounts of those that support the Spalding Theory"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "A lost Spalding manuscript was found in Hawaii"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "Ethan Smith - the author of A View of the Hebrews was Oliver Cowdery's minister from 1823-1828"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "More ongoing work is currently being performed in order to try to find a link between Rigdon and Smith before the BOM was published"
|sublink21=Response to claim: "It should also take into consideration the fact that Joseph Smith had years to come up with text and plot"
|sublink22=Response to claim: "If Joseph was indeed committing a fraud...He simply acted like he didn't know that Jerusalem had walls...OR if the BOM came from another source...then he may have been genuinely surprised"
|sublink23=Response to claim: "Joseph likely memorized the pages well enough to continue where he left off or he may very well have peaked at the last page before he started again"
|sublink24=Response to claim: "we were clearly taught that there was a curtain between Joseph and Oliver Cowdery...If that's the case...Joseph could have simply read from notes or even whole papers"
|sublink25=Response to claim: "knowledgeable LDS historians endorse the idea that Joseph put his face in a hat with a seer stone and dictated the BOM to a scribe"
|sublink26=Response to claim: "Emma blatantly lies in the following questions seriously damaging her credibility"
|sublink27=Response to claim: "Emma's answers are blatant lies, as the historical record shows"
|sublink28=Response to claim: "she didn't want to be portrayed as the woman whose husband made a fool of by claiming divine right to have relations with dozens of other women while he was married to Emma"
|sublink29=Response to claim: "If there are others that produced works that far exceeded their capabilities, then this would show that Joseph's experience was not unique"
|sublink30=Response to claim: "Their lack of ability, in each case, did not seem to deter them from producing works which equal, or easily surpass, the Book of Mormon in literary style and quality"
|sublink31=Response to claim: "A righteous man who was deluded could have written the Book of Mormon, not aware that he was lying"
|sublink32=Response to claim: "Some people believe that Joseph Smith's hand was moving by some strange force like the channelers do"
|sublink33=Response to claim: "The book is clearly of purely human origin, penned by an author with a vivid imagination ....Together with the duplicity of Smith's associates Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer"
|sublink34=Response to claim: "unless Laban was in the habit of coming home with blood-drenched clothing"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|summary=MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "The 'testimony of the witnesses' is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions...Should they be believed as well?"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened or that it didn't happen either"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have already been eager believers"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "There should have been no financial motive"
|sublink21=Response to claim: "Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony"
|sublink22=Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event"
|sublink23=Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public"
|sublink24=Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates"
|sublink25=Response to claim: "why was 'a supernatural power' needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates?"
|sublink26=Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have been gullible people"
|sublink27=Response to claim: "All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often"
|sublink28=Response to claim: "it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives"
|sublink29=Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"
}}



===Joseph Smith===
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "why didn't this wake up Joseph's brothers who were sleeping in the same room with him?"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."
|sublink1=Response to claim: In the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon
|sublink2=Response to claim: Issues related to revivals in the Palmyra area in 1820
|sublink3=Response to claim: Issues related to Oliver Cowdery's 1834-1835 Church history published in the Messenger and Advocate
|sublink4=Response to claim: "There is no evidence that Joseph told anyone before about 1835, including his family, about the first vision story we know today"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "How could Smith’s family be unaware of his vision while neighbors were persecuting him for it?"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "Historical documents indicate that Joseph was persecuted for engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "Who appeared to him? – (1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "he states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "some of the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph 'Nephi,' rather than Moroni"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "Curious investigators and historians wonder if there is evidence of an 1820 revival in the historical record"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "It started in the fall of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm was 1822"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the 'religious excitement' that Smith described"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "Records show that in June 1828, Joseph Smith applied for membership in his wife's Methodist Church"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "But of the nearly 4,000 alterations, some of them had to do with Joseph's evolving belief about the nature of God"
|sublink21=Response to claim: "The Fifth Lecture on Faith specifically states that the Father is a spirit"
|sublink22=Response to claim: "In 1832 Joseph Smith revealed that a man could not see God without the Mormon Priesthood. This revelation is currently Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Verses 21-22"
|sublink23=Response to claim: "Swedenborg insisted: 'There are three heavens'"
|sublink24=Response to claim: The First Vision teaches that "God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings: But this was not understood by church members during Smith’s lifetime"
|sublink25=Response to claim: "How is it that JS could remember the precise date of the angel's visit in 1823, but could not remember the precise date of God's appearance to him in 1820?"
|sublink26=Response to claim: "How do we know that it wasn't Satan (if he exists) that appeared to Joseph?"
|sublink27=Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Book of Abraham
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"
|summary=The critics summarize their position as follows: "We think that without an official response from the church on the Book of Abraham problems, we are required to have more faith than anyone should be asked to have."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists and both groups have indicated clearly that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "isn't it somewhat disturbing that Joseph would say that this pagan god with his exposed penis is our Heavenly Father?"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Facsimile 3...This particular scene corresponds to Chapter 125 of the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "But when it became obvious that the results were going to be painfully uncomfortable for the Church, work became very slow"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "one of the sections of papyrus was clearly the Egyptian writing from which Smith claimed to 'translate' the Book of Abraham"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Smith had obviously commissioned an artist to 'fill in' the missing details according to Smith's speculation"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Below is a modern reconstruction of what the missing pieces likely contained, based on contents of similar funeral documents"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "The Book of Abraham supports the concept of polygamy as Abraham took another wife as directed by the Lord"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "This is the only scriptural reference that we know of where God instructs someone to lie"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "If God would instruct Abraham to lie about his wives then it seems plausible that God could tell Joseph to lie about his wives as well"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "The Book of Abraham also introduced the first and only scriptural basis for denying the priesthood to Blacks"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "It described Pharaoh and the Egyptians as descendants of Ham and Canaan"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "perhaps it would not have been so prominently practiced by the members if there was no Book of Abraham to support the practice"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "The two current most prominent Egyptologists on each side of the BOA issue are LDS Egyptologist Michael Rhodes and nonLDS Egyptologist Robert Ritner"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "John Gee...He has written many articles for FARMS. He was a student of Egyptology under Robert Ritner"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "Stuart Ferguson: LDS archaeologist that spent 20 years on a quest to discover some archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "they needed to renew their subscriptions so they wouldn't miss any of the cliff-hanging Abrahamic adventures in Egypt"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "Apostle Jeffrey Holland was asked why the translation of the Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith doesn't match what Egyptologists say it means"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|summary=MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" <br><br>We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FairMormon) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The latest apologetic defense is to say that Joseph tried to do a secular translation"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|summary=MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.
|sublink1=Response to claim: "How is it that the BOM doesn’t match the" Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible?
|sublink2=Response to claim: "Why didn’t the next prophet, or any subsequent prophet, finish the inspired version of the Bible?"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Joseph...left 'uncorrected' the passages about how in heaven, they neither marry nor are given in marriage"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "the Book of Abraham....distinctly taught the plurality of gods....Why didn’t Joseph correct this when he translated the Bible"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Another error in the King James Version is the introduction of the name 'Lucifer'"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Each time linguists make a new Bible translation....not one to date has confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages"
}}


{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could probably not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is likely a "tall tale."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men"
}}

===History===
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|summary=MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.
|sublink1=Response to claim: "one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: There were more women than men in the 1800s"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was not practiced until after the Saints started immigrating to Utah"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Member beliefs....Polygamy was not illegal in the 1800s"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was an acceptable way to rapidly increase the Church membership"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "For example Brigham Young reportedly had 55 children by some 29 child-bearing capable wives but had those women had their own husbands they may have had 150 or more children in total"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "many church members, especially converts, naturally believe that Brigham Young started polygamy"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "If we take the Book of Mormon witnesses' statements so seriously, shouldn't we also accept other things that they reportedly witnessed just as powerfully?"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "Joseph's first polygamous marriage was before the sealing authority was given"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "Although Henry eventually remarried, after Brigham Young told him that his wife and children belonged to Brigham and not to Henry, he continued to yearn for Zina and their children"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "LDS apologists acknowledge Joseph married other men's wives"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith literally stole other men's wives and their children"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "The following is from a love letter Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney's daughter Sarah Ann"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "So why question whether or not Joseph had sex with his wives, even the ones who were already married to other men?"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "he would have been breaking the "commandment" from God if he did not try to procreate with his wives"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "When Joseph supposedly propositioned (or actually had sex with) fifteen year old Nancy Marinda Johnson, Dr. Dennison, with the encouragement of a neighborhood mob, nearly castrated him"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "Some critics believe that Joseph may have gotten some of his wives pregnant but had them get abortions"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith had "conjugal relations" with at least eight women in addition to his first wife, Emma"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "If even the FARMS apologists, FAIR apologists and faithful LDS historians acknowledge that Joseph may have had sex with his polygamous wives (including the ones already married)"
|sublink21=Response to claim: "Smith then asked for his only daughter, 14 year-old Helen"
|sublink22=Response to claim: "The negative writings by Helen seem to greatly outweigh the positive writings"
|sublink23=Response to claim: "it's futile for Mormon apologists to argue that Smith's sealing to Helen was 'dynastic' or 'spiritual' only"
|sublink24=Response to claim: "It is clear that on May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy"
|sublink25=Response to claim: "The Church continued to practice polygamy after 1890"
|sublink26=Response to claim: "a sitting apostle in the 1950s had a polygamous Father-in-law living in full fellowship in the church and was a temple worker, more than half a century after church leaders claimed to have abandoned polygamy"
|sublink27=Response to claim: Gordon B. Hinckley..."Why did the prophet of the church just lie and say that polygamy was not doctrinal?"
|sublink28=Response to claim: "The Church Almanac lists Parley P Pratt as assassinated while on a mission but he was really murdered by the irate existing husband of his latest fancy"
|sublink29=Response to claim: "the circumstances surrounding Joseph's assassination was a result of the actions he took to prevent his being exposed as a polygamist"
|sublink30=Response to claim: "Perhaps that's one reason we're told not to pray to our Mother-in-Heaven as we wouldn't know which one"
|sublink31=Response to claim: "We have to wonder why an angel didn't appear to Emma to convince her that polygamy was commanded by God"
|sublink32=Response to claim: "we can't think of any earthly reason for practicing polygamy"
|sublink33=Response to claim: "although polygamy was practiced somewhat in Old Testament times, it was more of a social custom and not a religious commandment"
|sublink34=Response to claim: "Why would Joseph make up the preposterous story that an angel with a sword commanded him to practice polygamy"
|sublink35=Response to claim: "So why doesn't the spirit make us all feel warm fuzzies inside when it comes to polygamy?"
|sublink36=Response to claim: "The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The leaders of the church up through the 1970s made it very clear why blacks were denied the priesthood"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "The term 'white' was changed to 'pure' in 1981"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Slaves were bought and sold in Utah Territory with the approval of Brigham Young"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Under President Jimmy Carter, Brigham Young University and possibly the LDS Church itself was in danger of losing their tax exempt status if they continued to discriminate against blacks"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "The 1978 'revelation' was just prior to the temple opening in Sao Paulo Brazil"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "some of these people may be taking liberties with the phrase 'voice of God'"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Although we don't normally quote from sources who are unwilling to have their name published"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "It seems likely from President Spencer W. Kimball's statement printed in the church's own newspaper that he did not receive any word from God concerning the matter"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "Alexander Morrison ....'How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations'"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "Isn't what GBH saying is wrong exactly what the Church did?"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "Many religions in the 1800s believed that the curse put upon Cain in Genesis was black skin"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "other non-LDS churches did not teach that blacks were less valiant before they came to earth - that was a unique LDS belief"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "If you accept scientific reasoning then all of Mormonism's teachings about race and skin are complete nonsense"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "Some members refer to this as the Bigfoot reference"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "Some members question whether the ban was actual doctrine or just Church policy"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "If the leaders of the church could make such a serious error, then how can we really ever put our 100% trust in what they say?"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "He should have stated whether or not the leaders of the church at that time interpreted that doctrine correctly or not"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "if all the prophets since Brigham Young until Spencer W. Kimball let it go unchallenged, then how can anyone say these men are truly prophets of God?"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "This LDS belief that even faithful blacks were destined to be just servants in the next life was also taught openly at least through the mid 1950s"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "Perhaps the Church should at least clarify the reasons for the ban"
|sublink21=Response to claim: "McConkie can only apologize for his own statements and the current prophet would have to explain the Church's practices for the first 150 years of its existence"
|sublink22=Response to claim: "One of the following must be racist - Was it Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or God?"
|sublink23=Response to claim: "Shouldn't we expect more from God's Prophets than to merely reflect the times in which they lived?"
|sublink24=Response to claim: "The church claims to be God's church, indeed, His kingdom on Earth. As such, they should not 'Course Correct'"
|sublink25=Response to claim: "Many faithful LDS simply dismiss the LDS racism as Brigham Young's racist attitudes were a reflection of the times in which he lived"
|sublink26=Response to claim: "But the LDS Church did not change until 1978 - decades after all the other major religions did"
}}

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Incident"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"
}}




===Doctrine===
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
|summary=This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
|sublink1=Response to claim: "We are not called to tithe, but to make an offering to sustain the church"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Tithing as the Catholic priest said above should be a gift, but the LDS Church makes it an obligation"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "The guilt placed upon Latter-day Saints can be considerable"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "The church owns many businesses that generate profits...The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The tithing money it receives is all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Imagine if you had a corporation where the business model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "The Church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "the church has far more than it needs"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "why couldn't the church sell its non-ecclesiastical assets and help the poor?"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "Now they expect members (as if they didn't spend enough time in church service) to clean their own buildings on their days off"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "probably not really the way Jesus would have intended his church to be run"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "where did the money come from to buy the businesses, stocks and other investments to generate those profits?"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "Of all the things Jesus would tell Gordon Hinckley, He told the Prophet to buy a mall?"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "It's disgraceful to read some of the propaganda the Church puts out about tithing"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "This absolute devotion of choosing to pay a religious entity that is worth some $100 Billion over feeding her children or paying the mortgage is nothing to be admired"
|sublink17=Response to claim: "LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "Many former Mormons continue to pay their tithing, but now do so to more traditional charities"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "LDS tithes are hardly used for charity, but are used primarily to build the kingdom"
|sublink20=Response to claim: "Advice for those who wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"
|summary=MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FairMormon responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "'''The absurdness of it all.'''"
|sublink1=Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "We were somewhat startled to find that FAIR admits that Masonry does not date back to Bible Times"
|sublink3=Response to claim: Joseph Smith "may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy"
|sublink8=Response to claim: "We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil'"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature... Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple"
|sublink13=Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|summary=MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom"
|sublink3=Response to claim: "The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith"
|sublink4=Response to claim: "The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy....was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith"
|sublink5=Response to claim: "In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi"
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco"
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon"
|sublink8=Response to claim: Joseph "published another version with original revelations revised"
|sublink9=Response to claim: "Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man"
|sublink10=Response to claim: "Some things that are true are not very useful"
|sublink11=Response to claim: "Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses"
|sublink12=Response to claim: "The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe"
|sublink13=Response to claim: " Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating"
|sublink14=Response to claim: "nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim"
|sublink15=Response to claim: "One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger"
|sublink16=Response to claim: "The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement"
|sublink17=Response to claim: Joseph said that "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing"
|sublink18=Response to claim: "the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife"
|sublink19=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney...He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, 'The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe'"
|sublink20=Response to claim: Joseph "publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage"
|sublink21=Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment"
|sublink22=Response to claim: "The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members"
}}

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Doctrine & Covenants
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
|summary=MormonThink concludes that the "D&C seems to betray it's origins as more likely coming from man and not from God as there have been many, many substantive changes to the D&C with no explanation."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Note that Adam and Michael are separate beings according to the vision. This contradicts Joseph’s later teachings, that Adam and Michael are the same person"
}}



===<span style="color:green">The "Spin Free" Section</span>===
The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.

{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Kinderhook Plates
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}

{{SummaryItem
|link=Book of Mormon/Plagiarism accusations/Comoros Islands and Moroni/Captain Kidd
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"
|summary=Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the ''John Whitmer Historical Association Journal'' in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" <ref>Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014</ref> We respond to these claims in this article.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Kirtland Temple Dedication
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm}})Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Some who were genuinely drunk probably added fuel to the environment by claiming to see things just to support their beloved prophet"
|sublink2=Response to claim: "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple....However, Elias and Elijah are the same person"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}

== ==
{{FairMormonBlogBar
|title=A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”
|link=https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse
|author=SteveDensleyJr
|date=February 17, 2014
|summary=A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.
<br>
As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”
}}

{{endnotes sources}}

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[[es:La crítica del Mormonismo/Sitios web/PiensaMormón]]
[[fr:Website reviews/MormonThink]]

Roper: "archaeologists have discovered a carburized iron sword near Jericho"

2017-05-26T18:57:46Z

RKM:

{{FME-Source
|title=Roper: "archaeologists have discovered a carburized iron sword near Jericho"
|category=Book of Mormon/Metals/Steel
}}
<onlyinclude>
==Roper: "archaeologists have discovered a carburized iron sword near Jericho"==
Matthew Roper:
<blockquote>
More significant, perhaps, in relation to the sword of Laban, archaeologists have discovered a carburized iron sword near Jericho. The sword which had a bronze haft, was one meter long and dates to the time of king Josiah, who would have been a contemporary of Lehi. This find has been described as “spectacular” since it is apparently “the only complete sword of its size and type from this period yet discovered in Israel.”(Hershall Shanks, “Antiquities director confronts problems and controversies,” Biblical Archaeology Review 12/4 [July-August 1986]: 33, 35).

Today the sword is displayed at Jerusalem’s Israel Museum. For a photo of the sword see the pdf version of the article [http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1388&index=12 here].

The sign on the display reads:
<blockquote>
<em>This rare and exceptionally long sword, which was discovered on the floor of a building next to the skeleton of a man, dates to the end of the First Temple period. The sword is 1.05 m. long (!) and has a double edged blade, with a prominent central ridge running along its entire length.

The hilt was originally inlaid with a material that has not survived, most probably wood. Only the nails that once secured the inlays to the hilt can still be seen. The sword’s sheath was also made of wood, and all that remains of it is its bronze tip. Owing to the length and weight of the sword, it was probably necessary to hold it with two hands. The sword is made of iron hardened into steel, attesting to substantial metallurgical know-how. Over the years, it has become cracked, due to corrosion.</em>
</blockquote>
Such discoveries lend a greater sense of historicity to Nephi’s passing comment in the Book of Mormon.<ref>Matthew Roper, [https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2013/06/17/labans-sword-of-most-precious-steel-howlers-5-2 "Laban’s Sword of 'Most Precious Steel' (Howlers #5),"] ''FairMormon Blog'' (17 June 2013)</ref>
</blockquote>
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[en:Source:Roper:Laban’s Sword of “Most Precious Steel”:archaeologists have discovered a carburized iron sword near Jericho]]
[[es:Fuente:Roper:Laban’s Sword of “Most Precious Steel”:los arqueólogos han descubierto una espada de hierro carburado cerca de Jericó]]
[[pt:Fonte:Roper:Laban’s Sword of “Most Precious Steel”:arqueólogos descobriram uma espada de ferro cementada perto de Jericó]]

[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]
[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]

Roper: "For example, an iron knife was found in an eleventh century Philistine tomb showed evidence of deliberate carburization"

2017-05-26T18:57:31Z

RKM:

{{FME-Source
|title=Roper: "For example, an iron knife was found in an eleventh century Philistine tomb showed evidence of deliberate carburization"
|category=Book of Mormon/Metals/Steel
}}
<onlyinclude>
==Roper: "For example, an iron knife was found in an eleventh century Philistine tomb showed evidence of deliberate carburization"==
Matthew Roper:
<blockquote>
Archaeologists, for example, have discovered evidence of sophisticated iron technology from the island of Cyprus. One interesting example was a curved iron knife found in an eleventh century tomb. Metallurgist Erik Tholander analyzed the weapon and found that it was made of “quench-hardened steel.” Other examples are known from Syro-Palestine. For example, an iron knife was found in an eleventh century Philistine tomb showed evidence of deliberate carburization. Another is an iron pick found at the ruins of an fortress on Mount Adir in northern Galilee and may date as early as the thirteenth century B.C. “The manufacturer of the pick had knowledge of the full range of iron-working skills associated with the production of quench hardened steel” (James D. Muhly, “How Iron technology changed the ancient world and gave the Philistines a military edge,” Biblical Archaeology Review 8/6 [November-December 1982]: 50).
According to Amihai Mazar this implement was “made of real steel produced by carburizing, quenching and tempering.” (Amihai Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible 10,000-586 B.C.E. New York: Doubleday, 1990, 361).<ref>Matthew Roper, [https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2013/06/17/labans-sword-of-most-precious-steel-howlers-5-2 "Laban’s Sword of 'Most Precious Steel' (Howlers #5),"] ''FairMormon Blog'' (17 June 2013)</ref>
</blockquote>
</onlyinclude>
{{endnotes sources}}


[[en:Source:Roper:Laban’s Sword of “Most Precious Steel”:Sophisticated iron technology]]
[[es:Fuente:Roper:Laban’s Sword of “Most Precious Steel”:Sofisticada tecnología del hierro]]
[[pt:Fonte:Roper:Laban’s Sword of “Most Precious Steel”:Tecnologia sofisticada de ferro]]

[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]
[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]

2017-04-16T06:20:01Z

RKM:

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Main Page

2017-04-10T01:38:48Z

RKM:

2015-02-19T00:01:42Z

RKM:

Talk:Mormonism and church finances/No paid ministry/General Authorities living stipend

2014-12-27T01:38:35Z

RKM: Created page with "Should we really say Bronco is the highest paid church employee? The BYU Athletic department says they don't receive funding for coaching salaries and that those funds must be..."

Should we really say Bronco is the highest paid church employee? The BYU Athletic department says they don't receive funding for coaching salaries and that those funds must be raised separately. Of course, money is fungible, but it's unlikely that the same money could be raised from the same athletic boosters to give to other causes.

Citation: "Although BYU is sponsored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Athletic Department receives no funding from the church. No tithing or tax dollars are used for BYU Athletics. The Athletic Department is responsible for raising all necessary funds to run the department, including, but not limited to: student-athlete scholarships, coaching salaries, as well as facility and program costs for each of BYU's 21 team sports." http://cougarclub.com/info [[User:Admin|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin|talk]]) 18:38, 26 December 2014 (MST)

User:RKM

2014-01-20T03:52:14Z

RKM:

Test after upgrading to 1.22.1

Mormonism and the nature of God/Nicene creed

2014-01-20T02:18:33Z

RKM:

User:RKM

2013-07-15T13:50:07Z

RKM:

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{{de:SpanishWiki|http://es.fairmormon.org/Portada}}

Test

[[File:Test123.png]]

Was Jesus Christ married?

2013-07-14T15:29:24Z

RKM: Redirected page to Jesus Christ/Was Jesus married

#REDIRECT [[Jesus Christ/Was Jesus married]]

Main Page

2011-03-31T20:53:45Z

RKM: Added meta description tag

MediaWiki:Sidebar

2011-03-21T03:53:03Z

RKM: